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Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:04 am
by Skeeze
Hi,

I just need some help from fellow Jaguar specialists here.
I may swap some guitars for a Jaguar here in my area, but the guitar raises some questions

The first and obvious one, I opened it, and there is no paint on cavities.

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Could this be legit ?? Or a repaint for sure ?
Thank you !

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:19 am
by Skeeze
In trem cavity...

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Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:41 am
by windmill
Does it have the brass shielding plates in the cavities with the controls ?

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:53 am
by Larry Mal
The brass plates are the shielding in the classic Jaguar configuration. I am no expert, but I do not think typically you would find shielding paint in guitars of the vintage spec that would have brass plates.

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:46 am
by Skeeze
windmill wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:41 am
Does it have the brass shielding plates in the cavities with the controls ?
All brass plates are present.
Seems odd. The trem cavity has some white paint. Also has that reddish primer ? I can see the wood under.
I don’t know, it may be original. It is a custom color (oly white turned to yellow). But other cavities are not painted, only that reddish thing.
I wonder if other people know of other unpainted ones.
This guitar is a 1966.

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:48 am
by andrewaward
It’s a refinish for sure, 100%

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:50 am
by sookwinder
If the question is ... is the finish original?
My initial thoughts are no.

there appears to be burgundy coloured paint soaked into the routed areas of the trem cavity and the controls cavities.
This does not look normal. It also does not look normal from a point of view is this other colour the original colour.
Maybe this was one of the many 60s guitars that was stripped and wood stained by the idiots in the early 70s.
Or may be it is an original BMM finished Jag (I have never seen an original 60s BMM painted cavity up close)

Take a look at the underside of the volume pot … solder where it should not be. Someone has had earth issues and added an additional earth wire back in the day.
The resistor on the tone pot is modern (modern-ish) and not original.
The capacitor on the tone pot is not original.
it should be a larger flat cap, coloured either brick red or mustard colour.
Pots are dated 66, and this means the guitar could be 66 - 73

Are there more under the hood photos? (I hate saying that. It should be "under the bonnet")

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:24 am
by Skeeze
Yes, the guitar has issues I am aware of (electronics, changed bridge..). My main question was about the finish - I know now it is not original too.
Thanks for the info.
Neck is nice. It is stamped 1966, but no binding and round dots. Right on the transition period. Maybe a ‘65 neck mounted on the ‘66 guitar.

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:41 am
by mbene085
Skeeze wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:24 am
Neck is nice. It is stamped 1966, but no binding and round dots. Right on the transition period. Maybe a ‘65 neck mounted on the ‘66 guitar.
RED FLAG!! Binding was introduced in '65. Given the refinish and hardware/electronics replacement, this may be a refinished 24"Mustang/Musicmaster/Duosonic neck. They are the same scale as Jaguar necks and fit on them just fine, but were continued to be made without binding or block into the mid-late 60's. They are far cheaper than real Jaguar necks and are common on vintage parts guitars assembled for profit.

What is the the code stamped on the neck? The number before the 2-digit year code indicates the model. "1" meant Jaguar up to 1965. A true '66 would be stamped "15", as in "15MMMYYS" where "MMM" is the 3-letter month code. "YY" is the 2-digit year code, and "S" is the 1-digit size code (A=1.5" nut, B=1 5/8", etc).

Necks were stamped at the time they were completed, so if it had no binding, it would be expected to be stamped "65" even if the guitar wasn't completed until '66. A '65 would be model code 1 but if somehow the neck wasn't completed until '66, it would be a model code 15. I have never seen a "15" neck without binding though, because binding started partway through the year prior to that code being introduced.

If this neck stamp starts with 8, 9, or 16, you have a fake that has been refinished with a Jaguar logo. Beware of a "16" that has been rubbed out to resemble a "15". Post a photo if you can.

Jaguars with Mustang necks play just the same (I would know, I have two of them), but it absolutely impacts the value (Mustang necks can still be found for $300 vs Jaguar necks over $1000 in the current market), so I'd knock about a grand off the value of a parts Jag being sold with a concealed Mustang neck.

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:00 am
by Skeeze
Wow!! Thanks a lot!
I am going to check right now.
(Anyway, I will pass on the guitar).

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:12 am
by Skeeze
Stamp is “16” !

You guys REALLY rules!!!

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:27 am
by DeathJag
Wow!
mbene085 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:41 am
Skeeze wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:24 am
Neck is nice. It is stamped 1966, but no binding and round dots. Right on the transition period. Maybe a ‘65 neck mounted on the ‘66 guitar.
RED FLAG!! Binding was introduced in '65. Given the refinish and hardware/electronics replacement, this may be a refinished 24"Mustang/Musicmaster/Duosonic neck. They are the same scale as Jaguar necks and fit on them just fine, but were continued to be made without binding or block into the mid-late 60's. They are far cheaper than real Jaguar necks and are common on vintage parts guitars assembled for profit.

What is the the code stamped on the neck? The number before the 2-digit year code indicates the model. "1" meant Jaguar up to 1965. A true '66 would be stamped "15", as in "15MMMYYS" where "MMM" is the 3-letter month code. "YY" is the 2-digit year code, and "S" is the 1-digit size code (A=1.5" nut, B=1 5/8", etc).

Necks were stamped at the time they were completed, so if it had no binding, it would be expected to be stamped "65" even if the guitar wasn't completed until '66. A '65 would be model code 1 but if somehow the neck wasn't completed until '66, it would be a model code 15. I have never seen a "15" neck without binding though, because binding started partway through the year prior to that code being introduced.

If this neck stamp starts with 8, 9, or 16, you have a fake that has been refinished with a Jaguar logo. Beware of a "16" that has been rubbed out to resemble a "15". Post a photo if you can.

Jaguars with Mustang necks play just the same (I would know, I have two of them), but it absolutely impacts the value (Mustang necks can still be found for $300 vs Jaguar necks over $1000 in the current market), so I'd knock about a grand off the value of a parts Jag being sold with a concealed Mustang neck.

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:27 am
by mbene085
Skeeze wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:12 am
Stamp is “16” !

You guys REALLY rules!!!
Bingo, right as I suspected.

Glad I could help. As soon as you mentioned it said "66" without binding, I got this sinking feeling. The decals on these guitars are actually over top of the finish, so it's possible to replace a Mustang decal with a Jaguar one without even having to refinish the neck.

In any case, this might be a perfectly good playing/sounding vintage parts guitar, but the seller needs to understand the actual value, which is far below a true '66 Jag. They might not be the one who did this work, and may have been tricked themselves. Let us know whether you end up getting it or not.

Fortunately, most of the people who do these neck swaps seem to think the number before the month indicates the date (16MAR being "16th of March"), as do most people who aren't familiar with vintage Fenders, without realizing it gives away that this is in fact a Mustang/MM/Duo neck, so they don't think to conceal/modify the stamp.

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:50 am
by Skeeze
A big thank you to you all.
I will inform the seller. I know him, he got the guitar as a regular one a while back...

Thanks again. Whatta great, great forum ;) 8)

Re: Old jaguar - no paint in cavities?

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:59 am
by Tsmithpam
Hi
I’m looking at a early 66 jag. Got a 1 jan 66 stamp. I understood it may be 15 not 1 in 66, but appreciate this is early in the year. Has bound neck.

Is from a reputable dealer.

Any thoughts?