NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
- Embenny
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 10363
- Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am
NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
So, I went down a bit of a rabbit hole recently as I discovered how much I didn't know about Leo Fender's "post-Fender" designs. My G&L SC-3, which was originally bought as a "birth year" guitar, led me deeper into the early history of G&L, like how it was born from Leo's company, CLF Research, and was only renamed and used as an overt guitar company in 1980 once his no-compete clause from the CBS buyout expired.
That led me to discover that CLF Research had been covertly building guitars and basses prior to 1980, including an Offset I barely knew anything about - the Stingray guitar:
This is a Stingray II, with the II meaning that it had a 7.5" radius vs the 12" radius of the Stingray I.
It's a bit of an odd duck for sure. Active electronics with 2-band EQ just like the original Stingray basses, but with an additional bright switch. Two humbuckers. Offset body that is in no discernible way related to the Stingray bass (one of which I own, and love).
The lore on these, which is very sparse, is that Leo was losing his hearing and designed it with ear-bleeding treble to compensate. I don't believe that, at all, considering the fact that he subsequently went on to design the various brilliant MFD bass and guitar pickups for G&L, which are extremely full-sounding in addition to being very clear. More likely is the alternative internet lore I found suggesting that it had active electronics and treble boost because of the tone-sucking unbuffered pedals guitarists were using at the time.
What few youtube videos I could find out there demonstrated the...shall we say "generous" high end on these, but I got the strong vibe that these guitars were more "misused" than "cursed with unusable tone." Leo's pre-CLF and post-CLF designs, along with the gamechanger that was the Stingray bass, made me optimistic that I'd find something redeemable in this one.
I've never seen on in the wild, so I scored mine (pictured above) from Ishibashi, who offer free international shipping and a ton of detailed photos. These have large offset bodies made of ash, and can weigh upwards of 11lbs, but this one clocked in at just 8.5 lbs (3.88kg) which was the real dealbreaker (dealmaker?) for me.
It feels a lot like a good CBS-era Fender instrument, in the sense that it's sturdy and has a 41 year-old poly finish on it. Not the same vibe as the worn nitro of my SC-3 which is 9 years its junior, but a good-feeling instrument nonetheless. Frets were in great shape, action is reasonable but could use a small tweak. Ergonomics are very Jazzmaster-like, but something about the strap button position makes it sit a bit farther to the right and therefore makes the neck feel a little shorter.
The electronics are the real star of the show. The bass and treble knobs are neutral at "5", but have no centre detent, and can both give you way more boost than you'd ever need. The bright switch is, on the surface, totally unnecessary-seeming, since the treble knob has such aggressive boost available. However, the controls are VERY interactive, kind of like an AC30's tone stack if you've ever used one of those. Boosting and cutting the treble knob with the bass knob just 1 point up or down gives a different sweep. The bright switch seems to boost slightly different frequencies based on where the treble knob is at. Cutting treble and engaging bright is totally different from boosting treble and disengaging bright.
I think the rough tonal reputation of these guitars comes from the typical guitarist habit of starting with everything on "10". If you do that, and run it into an amp that had been set for a passive Fender or Gibson guitar, the bass is boomy and the treble and high mids are like a searing knife to the eardrums. I think the lack of detent made it tough for guitarists to understand where "neutral" was on this thing. After all, we are talking about the same pre-Internet (and post-) guitarists who were and still are mystified by the "complicated" switches of the Jaguar, Jazzmaster, and Mustang.
Oh yeah. I almost forgot to mention that the 4-way rotary pickup selector also has an out-of-phase position. If you crank the switch clockwise, "diming" it along with the EQ knobs, you get out-of-phase pickups with massive treble and bass boost and a presence boost. Possibly the most scooped and shrill guitar tone I have ever heard. So I kinda get why a lot of people basically said fuck this guitar. But, being used to active basses, it wasn't hard for me to wrangle this thing. I mean, anyone who has dimed the EQ knobs on a 2-band Stingray bass knows what a mess of a tone that yields (the eardrum-shattering slap tones of most people trying out a 'Ray in a music store come to mind). The magic of active electronics usually lies in the subtle ranges of boost and cut.
It's quiet, and can drive long cables. It's damn hot-looking and nice-playing, too. And when you pull the tone knobs back to "5" and play from there, a massive variety of completely useful tones jump out of it. It can do a thick, clear, throaty neck humbucker sound. It can get just about the thickest bridge pickup tone you could ask for (which I REALLY didn't expect based on what I read and heard about these!!), and a very unique in-between sound with both pickups engaged, sort of throatier and less scooped than the middle position on a Mustang, Jag or JM. Push the treble or bright switch, and all sorts of crystalline tones jump out of it.
So there's a lot more to it than the rumours, or crappy youtube demos, suggest. Diming those treble and bright controls is just kind of like plugging into a clean Fender amp and setting the treble and presence to "10" with a single-coil bridge pickup engaged. If that's the only way people tried out those amps, there would be similar rumours that vintage Fender amps were unusably bright.
It's going to take some time to find my preferred settings, but this guitar sounds so utterly unlike my others that it's just a super fun and unique addition to the stable. A very under-appreciated guitar.
That led me to discover that CLF Research had been covertly building guitars and basses prior to 1980, including an Offset I barely knew anything about - the Stingray guitar:
This is a Stingray II, with the II meaning that it had a 7.5" radius vs the 12" radius of the Stingray I.
It's a bit of an odd duck for sure. Active electronics with 2-band EQ just like the original Stingray basses, but with an additional bright switch. Two humbuckers. Offset body that is in no discernible way related to the Stingray bass (one of which I own, and love).
The lore on these, which is very sparse, is that Leo was losing his hearing and designed it with ear-bleeding treble to compensate. I don't believe that, at all, considering the fact that he subsequently went on to design the various brilliant MFD bass and guitar pickups for G&L, which are extremely full-sounding in addition to being very clear. More likely is the alternative internet lore I found suggesting that it had active electronics and treble boost because of the tone-sucking unbuffered pedals guitarists were using at the time.
What few youtube videos I could find out there demonstrated the...shall we say "generous" high end on these, but I got the strong vibe that these guitars were more "misused" than "cursed with unusable tone." Leo's pre-CLF and post-CLF designs, along with the gamechanger that was the Stingray bass, made me optimistic that I'd find something redeemable in this one.
I've never seen on in the wild, so I scored mine (pictured above) from Ishibashi, who offer free international shipping and a ton of detailed photos. These have large offset bodies made of ash, and can weigh upwards of 11lbs, but this one clocked in at just 8.5 lbs (3.88kg) which was the real dealbreaker (dealmaker?) for me.
It feels a lot like a good CBS-era Fender instrument, in the sense that it's sturdy and has a 41 year-old poly finish on it. Not the same vibe as the worn nitro of my SC-3 which is 9 years its junior, but a good-feeling instrument nonetheless. Frets were in great shape, action is reasonable but could use a small tweak. Ergonomics are very Jazzmaster-like, but something about the strap button position makes it sit a bit farther to the right and therefore makes the neck feel a little shorter.
The electronics are the real star of the show. The bass and treble knobs are neutral at "5", but have no centre detent, and can both give you way more boost than you'd ever need. The bright switch is, on the surface, totally unnecessary-seeming, since the treble knob has such aggressive boost available. However, the controls are VERY interactive, kind of like an AC30's tone stack if you've ever used one of those. Boosting and cutting the treble knob with the bass knob just 1 point up or down gives a different sweep. The bright switch seems to boost slightly different frequencies based on where the treble knob is at. Cutting treble and engaging bright is totally different from boosting treble and disengaging bright.
I think the rough tonal reputation of these guitars comes from the typical guitarist habit of starting with everything on "10". If you do that, and run it into an amp that had been set for a passive Fender or Gibson guitar, the bass is boomy and the treble and high mids are like a searing knife to the eardrums. I think the lack of detent made it tough for guitarists to understand where "neutral" was on this thing. After all, we are talking about the same pre-Internet (and post-) guitarists who were and still are mystified by the "complicated" switches of the Jaguar, Jazzmaster, and Mustang.
Oh yeah. I almost forgot to mention that the 4-way rotary pickup selector also has an out-of-phase position. If you crank the switch clockwise, "diming" it along with the EQ knobs, you get out-of-phase pickups with massive treble and bass boost and a presence boost. Possibly the most scooped and shrill guitar tone I have ever heard. So I kinda get why a lot of people basically said fuck this guitar. But, being used to active basses, it wasn't hard for me to wrangle this thing. I mean, anyone who has dimed the EQ knobs on a 2-band Stingray bass knows what a mess of a tone that yields (the eardrum-shattering slap tones of most people trying out a 'Ray in a music store come to mind). The magic of active electronics usually lies in the subtle ranges of boost and cut.
It's quiet, and can drive long cables. It's damn hot-looking and nice-playing, too. And when you pull the tone knobs back to "5" and play from there, a massive variety of completely useful tones jump out of it. It can do a thick, clear, throaty neck humbucker sound. It can get just about the thickest bridge pickup tone you could ask for (which I REALLY didn't expect based on what I read and heard about these!!), and a very unique in-between sound with both pickups engaged, sort of throatier and less scooped than the middle position on a Mustang, Jag or JM. Push the treble or bright switch, and all sorts of crystalline tones jump out of it.
So there's a lot more to it than the rumours, or crappy youtube demos, suggest. Diming those treble and bright controls is just kind of like plugging into a clean Fender amp and setting the treble and presence to "10" with a single-coil bridge pickup engaged. If that's the only way people tried out those amps, there would be similar rumours that vintage Fender amps were unusably bright.
It's going to take some time to find my preferred settings, but this guitar sounds so utterly unlike my others that it's just a super fun and unique addition to the stable. A very under-appreciated guitar.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.
- Larry Mal
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 19723
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
- Location: Saint Louis, MO
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
That's fucking amazing. Good job.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.
- Pacafeliz
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 18560
- Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:34 pm
- Location: Cococologne, Germany
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
Gosh I've always been after one of these!!!
i love delay SO much ...that i procrastinate all the time.
- Maggieo
- Expat
- Posts: 13447
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:36 am
- Location: Nebraska, USA
- Contact:
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
Great post!
Ever since seeing Stop Making Sense, I've wanted a MM from that era. Man, you scored a unicorn!!
Ever since seeing Stop Making Sense, I've wanted a MM from that era. Man, you scored a unicorn!!
“Now I am quietly waiting for/ the catastrophe of my personality/ to seem beautiful again.”- Frank O'Hara
I am not an attorney and this post is for entertainment purposes only. Please consult a licensed attorney in your state for legal advice.
I am not an attorney and this post is for entertainment purposes only. Please consult a licensed attorney in your state for legal advice.
-
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 5153
- Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:30 am
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
Sweet. Yeh the confusion is caused by the active tone controls, they cut and boost like a proper EQ...nothing like a passive tone control. Thats why I love the Stingray bass...you can cut/boost bass, cut/boost treble to taste to fit the track when recording DI with no effect to the inherent tone and volume.
- Surfysonic
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 1868
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:22 pm
- Location: Walkersville, MD
- Contact:
- Embenny
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 10363
- Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
[/quote]
An 8.5lb Stingray in good shape definitely felt like a unicorn. So many 10+ lb ones out there that I wasn't willing to jump on anything without a confirmed weight. I'm not super stingy about weight and I'd have settled for 9-10 lbs, but the details on this one were just too good to pass up (OHSC, polepieces that weren't too corroded, free international shipping).
Thanks, think it's fucking amazing too. I'm such a massive hipster that, now that Fender offsets are everywhere, I had to go and find something that's still unloved and unappreciated
If it wasn't for Reverb, I still wouldn't have one of these. I have never seen a single one in Canada before.
Yeah, that was a Sabre, and I have never found anything to confirm or deny whether the identical-looking pickups and active controls of the Sabre were actually the same as the Stingray. I just had to go with the 'Ray over the Sabre because the two electric instruments I've played from day one have been offset guitars and a Stingray bass, so an offset Stingray guitar was pretty much
An 8.5lb Stingray in good shape definitely felt like a unicorn. So many 10+ lb ones out there that I wasn't willing to jump on anything without a confirmed weight. I'm not super stingy about weight and I'd have settled for 9-10 lbs, but the details on this one were just too good to pass up (OHSC, polepieces that weren't too corroded, free international shipping).
Oh, absolutely. Those controls on my 'Ray (bass) have come in handy pretty much every time I've ever picked it up. Fine-tuning from the instrument is just such a powerful thing. I will admit that when I first played one, many years ago, I cranked all the knobs and thought "Why does this sound bad? Everything's on 10!" It's just a different way of approaching your settings from vs a passive instrument, but I can 100% see how the controls could be misunderstood by more guitarists than bassists, since active EQ controls are so rare on guitars.eggwheat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:12 pmSweet. Yeh the confusion is caused by the active tone controls, they cut and boost like a proper EQ...nothing like a passive tone control. Thats why I love the Stingray bass...you can cut/boost bass, cut/boost treble to taste to fit the track when recording DI with no effect to the inherent tone and volume.
Thanks! A real left turn from the '62 and '66 Jags, but variety is the spice of life and all that!
The artist formerly known as mbene085.
- Kinx
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:27 am
- Location: Czech Republic
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
Awesome ! I've been gassing for Stingray I for years - one of the most underrated guitars of the 70s. There is one for sale in Prague thst has been there for about an year or so, otherwise they are indeed rare.
Check out my band, The Atavists ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG-HZtrljMg
- shadowplay
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 25930
- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:30 am
- Location: Glasgow. Scotland
- Contact:
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
Congrats, cool guitar. Pretty interesting as there's not really much of a codified image for them. Off the top of my head I've possibly only seen Robert Hampson of Loop using one in person.
If LoneLady ever thought of branching away from her natural Tele a Stingray could be a cool fit.
D
If LoneLady ever thought of branching away from her natural Tele a Stingray could be a cool fit.
D
Are you loathsome tonight?
- Maggieo
- Expat
- Posts: 13447
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:36 am
- Location: Nebraska, USA
- Contact:
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
David, we had the exact same thought about LoneLady. And you have my undying gratitude for introducing me to her music.shadowplay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:34 amCongrats, cool guitar. Pretty interesting as there's not really much of a codified image for them. Off the top of my head I've possibly only seen Robert Hampson of Loop using one in person.
If LoneLady ever thought of branching away from her natural Tele a Stingray could be a cool fit.
D
“Now I am quietly waiting for/ the catastrophe of my personality/ to seem beautiful again.”- Frank O'Hara
I am not an attorney and this post is for entertainment purposes only. Please consult a licensed attorney in your state for legal advice.
I am not an attorney and this post is for entertainment purposes only. Please consult a licensed attorney in your state for legal advice.
- eskmsaul
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:20 pm
- Location: Irvine
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
Congrats, I've always wanted one of these, they just look so cool. Enjoy!
- Mechanical Birds
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 3624
- Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:24 pm
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
Really wish I could find a deal on one of these. Like everything else I like I probably could have snagged one for like $300/$400 10/15 years ago but oh well. I’m glad they reissued them but I wish they’d have released a version with a real Offset trem even though I know that’s not their thing, it seems like it would really top these things off.
- 46346
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 2831
- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:39 am
- Location: echo ECHO park PARK
- Contact:
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
super cool! i never knew they did a vintage radius on these. i'd love to try it.
i had always wondered why so few guitar people seemed to care what Leo was up to back then, though the bass players seemed to know what was up. i'm not playing much bass these days, but i'll never give up my '79 Music Man Sabre. perhaps if i ever retire, i may give it to my nephew.
the story of CLF Research is quite deep and fun to dig into. Dave McLaren of G&L has been uncovering some of Leo's experiments and other cool stuff - you can see them on the CLF Research FB page.
i had always wondered why so few guitar people seemed to care what Leo was up to back then, though the bass players seemed to know what was up. i'm not playing much bass these days, but i'll never give up my '79 Music Man Sabre. perhaps if i ever retire, i may give it to my nephew.
the story of CLF Research is quite deep and fun to dig into. Dave McLaren of G&L has been uncovering some of Leo's experiments and other cool stuff - you can see them on the CLF Research FB page.
Cat Museum, ACME, Malcolm Mooney, Dream Apes, The Cooling Time, Kind Hearts and Coronets, Quarks
- Pacafeliz
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 18560
- Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:34 pm
- Location: Cococologne, Germany
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
oh shit what have you done, i've hit GAS!
i love delay SO much ...that i procrastinate all the time.
- Embenny
- PAT. # 2.972.923
- Posts: 10363
- Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am
Re: NGD: 1977 MusicMan Stingray II
You're absolutely right, it's cool having a Leo design that doesn't come with a bunch of baggage related to image. Alabama and Talking Heads used the Sabre at one point, but nobody really went high-profile with the Ray.shadowplay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:34 amCongrats, cool guitar. Pretty interesting as there's not really much of a codified image for them. Off the top of my head I've possibly only seen Robert Hampson of Loop using one in person.
If LoneLady ever thought of branching away from her natural Tele a Stingray could be a cool fit.
D
Yeah, it's interesting that Leo was quietly building great guitars with great QC but went unnoticed in the era of nosediving CBS quality in the late 70's. The basses are so revered, but the Stingray guitar ended up as more of a footnote than anything else.
Thanks!
Everything is relative. Maybe some day these will be going for $5k and you'll be saying, "I should have snagged one in 2018!" In the pre-Reverb days, even in the eBay years, I never really saw these come up, let alone with a measured weight. And I definitely didn't see them in the wild. So maybe they were hanging for $300 in pawn shops in 2001, but I wouldn't have found mine that way.Mechanical Birds wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:57 pmReally wish I could find a deal on one of these. Like everything else I like I probably could have snagged one for like $300/$400 10/15 years ago but oh well. I’m glad they reissued them but I wish they’d have released a version with a real Offset trem even though I know that’s not their thing, it seems like it would really top these things off.
I like to think of this design as the anti-Jazzmaster. It's like Leo went at every perceived design flaw with a vengeance. JM pickups hummed more than any of his other designs, so he put humbuckers and active circuitry in the Ray so that you could drive long cables with zero noise. People (at the time) complained about the sustain and instability of the bridge, so he put a hardtail with giant honking saddles on it. People (at the time) thought the JM sounded too thin, so he not only put buckers on this, but an active bass boost as well.
Yeah, it seems like the Stingray II and Sabre II ended up being more popular than the I's, so you actually find more 7.5" than flat radii on these.46346 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:27 amsuper cool! i never knew they did a vintage radius on these. i'd love to try it.
i had always wondered why so few guitar people seemed to care what Leo was up to back then, though the bass players seemed to know what was up. i'm not playing much bass these days, but i'll never give up my '79 Music Man Sabre. perhaps if i ever retire, i may give it to my nephew.
the story of CLF Research is quite deep and fun to dig into. Dave McLaren of G&L has been uncovering some of Leo's experiments and other cool stuff - you can see them on the CLF Research FB page.
I agree that the history of CLF Research is super interesting. Have you ever looked at the last Musicman design, the Sabre, next to G&L's first model, the F-100? Not much of a missing link there.
I agree that bassists know what's up. These guitars were way better built than contemporaneous Fenders.
'twas ever thus!
The artist formerly known as mbene085.