Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Discussion of vintage Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Bass VIs, Electric XIIs and any other offset-waist instruments.
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akpasta
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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by akpasta » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:56 pm

mick_e wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:02 pm
This may sound like a silly suggestion, but have you experimented with altering the pickup heights?
Yes! I have! Breaks up no matter what.

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by N0_Camping4U » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:44 am

I'm not being funny, am I the only dude who going raw dog with the Xii into an amp? I plug into my Showman.. Just Xii, reverb tank, and Showman and I think it sounds really good. Very authentic/old in a good way.

I love the tone, I think my band does or they'd say something... Am I missing something by not having a comp. pedal? I'd imagine they went raw back in the 60's and then it was compressed during mixing, but everything was compressed more or less equally due to less control over all.
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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by akpasta » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:44 am

Well.... given my issue with stock XII pickups and compression maybe you're not missing anything :fp:

Compression pedal on a Ric or anything else is like a magic box. I've demoed the difference and people are like "holy shit wow."

The Byrds discovered it by accident. The studio was worried about a big loud rock band fuckingnup their gear so they put a ton of compression on everything and McGuinn was like "wow what's THAT" and he recorded straight into two tube amp compressors basically and straight into the board, no amp. Of course the pedals we have now are more portable and versatile than that.

Yesterday I tried pickup height again, I put the pickups AS LOW AS POSSIBLE, and it was noticeably cleaner. These are very noisy pickups, hum-wise. I've ordered some Chris Novak pickups and hopefully they make a difference. If they don't I may sell the guitar or mod it with Ric toasters or lipstick. I know that's an unpopular opinion here but oh well.

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by Embenny » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:14 am

I dunno man, the soul and essence of a vintage guitar is basically in the tone of the pickups. I hope you like the Novaks, but I still don't understand why you didn't sell the XII and buy a rick. You'd lose less on the resale than the cost of the Novaks. The XII isn't a Byrds machine and never will be. It just has a different tone.

If you want a XII with Ric pickups, for the love of god have someone build you a new body instead of routing a vintage one. Plenty of people could make you one for a few hundred bucks and you wouldn't be devaluing a rare vintage instrument to the tune of thousands, and more importantly destroying one of a small number of intact historical examples.

That's like routing out a '65 strat for PAFs because you just can't get enough of a Joe Walsh tone. It's just the wrong guitar for the job.
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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by akpasta » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:21 am

Thanks for following this thread and for your feedback and advice.

The reason I haven't sold this guitar and bought a Ric is because the Ric neck doesn't play very well to me. It's too thin and cramped. The Fender 12 wider neck and longer scale feels great and the guitar just looks more unique and is more fun to play.

I'm hoping the Novak pickups will help.

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by akpasta » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:36 am

Thanks for your time and thoughts.

I think we disagree fundamentally on how a 12 string should sound. I think they sound awful without compression. I am doing fine with compression, and am very very certain at this point that I am not using the compressor in a way that is causing my problem with the XII. I've tried too many compressors and amp configurations. I believe I have narrowed my issue down to the pickups.

The guitar does NOT sound fine straight into the amp, the pickups sound kind of dead, nasaly and distort easily when pushed. I don't know if that's how they are supposed to sound but it doesn't sound good to me! Honestly, I realize that because it's a collectible vintage instrument people say "that's just how they sound" but you know, if the guitar was made that way today people would just say "it doesn't sound good." From the reputation of the instrument-- only a couple famous rockers used them, and the guitar was discontinued after just a couple years-- it sounds like people back in the day didn't like the sound of em either.

I am not far from the sound I want. I am getting very close to getting the EQ I want, the problem is I have to adjust the pickups as low as possible to keep them from distorting and sounding crunchy. Curtis says this is a well-known problem with stock XII pickups, they are wound too tightly and break up easily with a nasaly mid-heavy spike. He says he makes his pickups specifically to fix this well-known problem; he winds them looser and uses heavier gauge wire which scoops the mids and allows the lows and highs to come in and produces a cleaner tone. I'm going to give those pickups a shot, and then see how it goes.

You're going to hate me, but also the bridge on these guitars needs work ;D , the three highest string sets (G, B, E) are a bit too close together at the bridge. When you fret notes above the 8th fret the strings hit each other and cancel out. If the pickups make the sound I am hoping for, I am going to take the guitar in again and have the shop cut some paths in the saddles to space the strings out a bit more.

All these things I am changing are reversible. I can put the old pickups back and the saddles are wide enough that the strings can be placed back in the stock position-- or one can flip the saddles over so they "look" perfect and unmodified. I am having second thoughts about cutting into the body and putting different pickups in, I might buy a Rick and see if I can get used to the tiny neck before I go that route.

It's funny to me that no one really made a perfect 12 string in the old days, and no one to this day makes a perfect one that is high quality.

The Rickenbackers have the perfect tone, but they play very weird because of the tiny neck and all of them need the 12-saddle bridge upgrade, not to mention, the string orientation on ricks (fat string first) is not ideal to me. The Fender XII has a perfect neck, but the pickups sound bad and the bridge needs a little work. The Danelectro has all the perfect components but the fretboard is flat and clumsy and the thing is top heavy and feels like a cheap toy. Ah what can you do.

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by mgeek » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:30 pm

akpasta wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:36 am
From the reputation of the instrument-- only a couple famous rockers used them, and the guitar was discontinued after just a couple years-- it sounds like people back in the day didn't like the sound of em either.
Jimmy Page used one on stairway to heaven, and it sounds pretty damned good ;)

Can't comment on a Fender electric xii from personal experience but I had a Burns/Baldwin Double Six and it was, to put it politely, a piece of crap. Weighed as much as a bus and had no treble response to speak of. Gladly flipped it when I got hold of a New Zealand made Jansen 12 which is a million times better.

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by andy_tchp » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:18 pm

Hang on a minute.

Something is fucked.

Fundamentally with the guitar as it sits now - There should not be any kind of distortion running into a clean amp like a Twin, let alone 'distorts easily'. 'Kind of dead, nasally' indicates something is very definitely not working as it was designed to.

Time to open it up I think and have a look at the wiring. Please post pics too so we can attempt to see what's going on.
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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by andy_tchp » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:27 pm

"I don't know why we asked him to join the band 'cause the rest of us don't like country music all that much; we just like Graham Lee."
David McComb, 1987.

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by akpasta » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:43 am

andy_tchp wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:18 pm
Hang on a minute.

Something is fucked.

Fundamentally with the guitar as it sits now - There should not be any kind of distortion running into a clean amp like a Twin, let alone 'distorts easily'. 'Kind of dead, nasally' indicates something is very definitely not working as it was designed to.

Time to open it up I think and have a look at the wiring. Please post pics too so we can attempt to see what's going on.
I had a shop inspect the pickups and wiring and everything checked out okay. I was told "this sounds like a. I've example of a fender xii.

It is clean enough uncompressed that they probably did not notice but hearing how it sounds compressed I can tell that those conditions are still there uncompressed. I've lowered the pickups all the way and it makes the guitar much cleaner and less crunchy but it's much lower output which is not ideal.

Curtis Novak claims familiarity with this exact sound and says it's because the stock pickups are overwound. I purchased a FAT lower wound pickup set (fat means thicker gauge windimg wire) that he says fixes this exact issue. I'm going to try them out.

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by cestlamort » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:02 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:19 am
akpasta wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:55 pm
It's a 12-string guitar, so you must use a compressor to get a good sound.
I disagree with this, fundamentally.

What IS true is that there's a tradition of using a compressor on Rickenbacker 12 strings. But that's a highly specific tradition that tracks with a particular kind of 12-string playing. And, FWIW, those sounds on records were almost never pedal compressors, and were very often recorded direct-in without an amp.

Onstage, Roger McGuinn maintains that he never used a compressor with the Byrds-- that was only done at Columbia when they were recording.

A Fender XII is totally a different animal. Yes, it's an "electric 12 string," but that's where the similarities really end. If you like the way it plays better, then maybe consider that you're going to have to embrace an entirely different thing. You're not going to get a Fender XII to do that jangly Ric thing any easier than you're going to get a Les Paul to sound like a Stratocaster.
I agree with øøøøøøø [Brad] entirely.

I actually like 12 strings more without a compressor. A Janglebox + Rickenbacker will get "that" sound (chimey semi-strangled), but a Fender XII is a different guitar than a Rickenbacker and will behave and sound differently. (The Janglebox does exactly what it purports to do -- I just don't like what it does.)

I'd try a ton of different compressors before doing any mods if you're having issues with the one you are using. (Which is why there are different pedals -- not everything plays nice with each other). Different compressors behave differently and create different results.

With vintage guitars, especially unmodified ones, there's also some implied caretaker responsibility with them, even if they are less than perfect. (Defective / broken / non-functional / etc is a different story. Design, however, is maybe not). There are only so many Fender XII's out there, fewer unmodified ones. Switching pickups is not an especially invasive mod (not like putting a floyd rose on there) but, just like people switched out low output pickups for other stuff in old strats in the 80s, it might ultimately be a matter of taste and expectation. And: finding replacement parts for the bridge might pose a bit of a challenge.

In other words, "the pickups/wiring are defective" is a different argument than "I don't like how it sounds."

Sometimes it just doesn't work out, and that's okay: For example, I went through a few jazzmasters before realizing, no matter how cool/iconic/amazing I think they are, it just wasn't a good match for what I like to do and how I like a guitar to sound. I also had the "fender econo xii" (Squier Venus XII) and was never liked how it sounded. I sold it for a Hagstrom H12 and was instantly much happier. (Which I then sold for a Rickenbacker 12 and was happier still).

There may indeed be something wrong with yours, but there's also no harm in leaving it as-is, and selling it to get something that is a better match, such as a Rickenbacker 1993Plus, which sounds like what you're after (chimey + wider neck). Or a Guild Starfire XII would also fit the bill -- amazing, overlooked guitars, if not as iconic (and priced accordingly). If you don't like how it sounds and how it plays, maybe you simply don't like how it sounds and how it plays, and that's okay (but disappointing, of course).

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by akpasta » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:39 am

Let me elaborate.

Compressors- I've tried a Janglebox, and a MXR Dynacomp. I prefer the Dynacomp. The Janglebox is a blunt tool for adding treble, but it's actually too much treble and it adds a ton of buzz for some reason-- which perhaps is a sign of something else wrong. I am going to return the Janglebox. The Dynacomp is pretty good, but I'm going to seek out some compressors with an adjustable tone knob so I don't have to make drastic EQ adjustments on the amp.

Amps- I've tried a Roland JC-60, Roland JC-120, Fender Twin, Fender Deluxe, Fender 75, Orange Crush 20RT. None of them produce a bright clean tone with the pickups at a normal position.

What I've found in hours of experimentation is that with the pickup height at a "normal" setting, it produces a VERY crunchy, nasaly tone with any compressor. Straight into the amp, it is still not very clean and is very nasaly, and you can hear hints of crunch that is amplified by the compression (it's there all along, not caused by the compressor).

Last week I realized, with the pickups adjusted ALL THE WAY down to the very bottom (which I'd never thought to try since it is not ideal), it doesn't distort anymore and I can get close to the clean jangly tone I want through a Dynacomp and a JC-120 (solid state) that is not distorted and has brightness with the EQs relatively close to 12 o'clock. It was close enough that I used it on a recording. The only downside is I know I am losing tone/volume because the output is MUCH lower with the pickups totally bottomed out. But given the pickups distort so much and have such a mid spike when placed at a normal distance from the strings, such adjustment is necessary.

The issue here seems to be the pickups! And indeed, Curtis Novak, whose reputation is touted everywhere I go, said that the stock XII pickups get crunchy and have a mid-spike because they are overwound. Therefore I am going to try his pickups.

If they make the sound I want I am going to have the bridge adjusted a bit to space the strings out more as they rattle together easily above the 7-8th fets, and then I will have my perfect 12 string guitar. If the pickups don't do it, I will try a Ric. If I don't like the Ric I may buy a replacement pickguard to put different pickups in and have the body routed for other pickups, maybe lipstick pickups would be the least intrusive to this body. As to the "Caretaker" thing, I would only mod the guitar in a way where it could still be functionally returned to "stock." I don't care much for collector obsessiveness. If I can return a guitar to functional stock I consider it "preservation." But that's just me!! :-)

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by Embenny » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:11 am

I think the frustration you're sending from other stems from a simple misunderstanding of signal chains. Pickups don't distort. They simply don't. No pickup in the world produces distortion, or crunch, or whatever you wish to call it.

That is 100% entirely plgenerated further down the signal chain, e.g. the compressor you're running it into. Like Brad said, compressors are one of the easiest tools to completely ruin a signal with, and that sounds very much to be the case of what is going on here, along with a case of expectations being mismatched to what a Fender XII can and will do.

Instead of routing a rare vintage guitar for lipsticks or Rick pickups, please consider having a new body made with that configuration. It's barely more expensive and saves a rare unmodified vintage instrument from destruction.

This forum is filled with vintage offset enthusiasts who collect and restore guitars. I realize I'm sounding like a broken record here, but once you're entering the realm of routing and pickup experimentation, your desires are truly best met by a new build.

For example, there are easily a half-dozen small builders who will make you a phenomenal XII-shaped guitar with the wider string spacing you desire, and a set of Ric toaster pickups, and you would easily come out $1-$2k ahead if you sold the vintage XII to commission it. That's financially more logical than devaluing a vintage guitar by $1-$2k by routing it for lipsticks or what have you, and I agree fully with the last comment about the "implied caretaker responsibility" that comes with an unmodified vintage guitar.

In this golden age of luthiery, where so many top-notch builders are making so many fantastic guitars, it simply makes no sense to me to start buggering up a rare pristine, unmodified vintage Fender.

I feel I have said all I can on thsee issues, and will stop repeating myself now.
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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by akpasta » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:47 am

If compression, and not pickups are causing this. How would you explain my getting a clean tone by lowering the pickups all the way? My understanding is that hot pickups can push an amp to distort quicker, so lowering them is like lowering "gain" on an amp or something. Curtis Novak says the stock pickups do this and his lower wound ones don't, so that's why I am trying those instead. I hope they work!

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Re: Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

Post by StevenO » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:19 am

Is it possible to spray the switch, pots, and jacks with Deoxit. I feel like there might be some funkiness going on electronically with the guitar that is producing a crunchiness to the signal. Maybe some static interference even? Who knows. Try it all before you go ahead and break solder joints.

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