Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

[akpasta]

Hi Folks,

I recently bought a 1966 Fender Electric XII and it plays really great, BUT, it sounds, like crap, honestly. For some reason the pickups are really crunchy. I play through a MXR Dynacomp and have tried the guitar in various Fender tube amps (black faces, silver faces) and even solid state amps (JC-120, Orange Crush) and it is still very crunchy, and not clean or shimmery at all.

I tried a Rickenbacker and thought about just selling this guitar, but the Fender feels so much better than a Ric to me that I want to see what I can do with the Fender before resigning myself to growing accustomed to a Ric 12.

The next thing to try, I guess, is pickups.

Curtis Novak sells a pair that use a heavier gauge wire and is not wound as tightly, he claims they reduce the mids and allow the lows and highs to cut through, producing a cleaner tone. http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/xii-fat.shtml

Does anyone have experience with these particular Curtis Novak pickups? Does it get this guitar sounding as jangly as it should sound. I realize it'll never sound like a Ric because it's solid body, but will it at least sound decent?

Lastly, this is an all-original 1966 guitar, if I try the Curtis Novak (or any other) pickups and decide I can't get the guitar to sound the way I want, and I put the original pickups back, will that reduce the value of the instrument and can I ethically claim it is still "all original?"

thank you!

[Embenny]

Yes, disturbing original solder joints does affect value.

I believe you are misinterpreting Curtis' description. His XII-FAT is a higher output, warmer sounding pickup than a stock XII. It just doesn't achieve that by simply overwinding, which boosts kids. It's a larger gauge wire which adds bass and thickness without too many mids.

It is significant bassier and warmer than a vintage XII pickup. It's for people who find the stock pickup too shrill and trebly. You clearly find that it is not trebly/jangly enough, in which case the XII-FAT is a terrible idea.

I own one. It's an extremely warm sounding single coil pickup. Probably the warmest Fender-style pickup I own.

[akpasta]

Thanks for the advice. Let me clarify, I do not think the pickup is too trebly. Actually I think the mid-range is too high, it sounds nasaly. I can EQ that out, the main problem at this point is the pickup is very crunchy and breaks up right away. I can't get a clean sound at all.

is the pickup you have clean and clear? Do you know what I mean about the stock pickup being crunchy?

[Embenny]

Thanks for the advice. Let me clarify, I do not think the pickup is too trebly. Actually I think the mid-range is too high, it sounds nasaly. I can EQ that out, the main problem at this point is the pickup is very crunchy and breaks up right away. I can't get a clean sound at all.

is the pickup you have clean and clear? Do you know what I mean about the stock pickup being crunchy?

Crunch is a characteristic of the amp or pedals, not the pickup. The XII-FAT is hotter, if that's what you're asking - higher output, so if your pedal/amp combo has low headroom (which sounds to be the case), then that will be exacerbated by putting in a hotter pickup.

I do understand what you mean by a nasal tone, many an electric 12-string can get that way, but it truly sounds like you just plain don't like the sound of the Electric XII. The XII-FAT might be less nasal, but it is definitely less "jangly" which seems to be what you like. If you like the Danelectro XII and Rics, a XII-FAT is way fuller and higher output than either of those.

[akpasta]

Thanks for the response.

There's no way a Fender Twin Reverb or Roland JC-120 has low headroom. I have the amps turned up quite loud, with an MXR dynacomp reducing the volume a lot. On my Danelectro this does not produce any distortion but on this Fender, it produces quite a bit of distortion. Could it be that the low-output pickups are causing the break up? In this case would higher output pickups limit the breakup? I can't imagine why they would, but maybe? I even tried matching the volume on the amp with the volume with the compressor engaged, to make sure the pedal wasn't altering the volume and causing break-up, and it was still quite noisy.

I notice when i compare the Danelectro to the XII, that the Danelectro has way higher output. Is this indication that higher output pickups on the Fender XII might produce less distortion?

The nasaly tone is mostly present on positions with both pickups selected, the bridge is not especially nasaly, but just too crunchy.

Jangly is definitely what I like but I'm not looking to go overboard McGuinn. It is a real shame because the Fender XII plays better than any 12 string. Is there anything else that can be done?

Thank you.

[Embenny]

Or be honest it sounds like the distortion you're hearing is happening at the level of the dynacomp's input or circuit or something, as you're right that a Twin absolutely shouldn't be causing it. Does it still sound dirty to you if you remove the compressor from the signal chain?

It's possible that you're heading artefacts from the compressor itself. I know a lot of 12-string guys prefer optical compressors to dynacomp style pedals.

[akpasta]

I don't hear distortion when I disable the dynacomp but of course no compression is no good haha.

I have a janglebox on the way. Maybe that will help. Is there another comp I should try? Pedals are necessary unfortunately, can't gig with a rack mount.

At any rate it sounds perfect with the Dano...

[akpasta]

Do you have an alternate compressor recommendation?

Maybe traditional compression pedals are overcompressing and causing distortion on the fender electric xii for some reason. Do you think it might be useful to try a pedal with more compression controls? What about something like the MXR m76 Studio Compressor, that has individual controls for all compressor functions? http://tonereport.com/reviews/mxr-m76-studio-compressor

I was also thinking, my danelectro signal is much stronger than the Fender XII signal, and the Dyna Comp sounds great through that and doesn't distort at all. Perhaps the XII distortoin through that pedal arises from the pickups being lower output? In that case, perhaps the Curtis Novak higher output pickups would lessen the distortion? What do you think?

Thank you.

[Embenny]

Do you have an alternate compressor recommendation?

Maybe traditional compression pedals are overcompressing and causing distortion on the fender electric xii for some reason. Do you think it might be useful to try a pedal with more compression controls? What about something like the MXR m76 Studio Compressor, that has individual controls for all compressor functions? http://tonereport.com/reviews/mxr-m76-studio-compressor

I was also thinking, my danelectro signal is much stronger than the Fender XII signal, and the Dyna Comp sounds great through that and doesn't distort at all. Perhaps the XII distortoin through that pedal arises from the pickups being lower output? In that case, perhaps the Curtis Novak higher output pickups would lessen the distortion? What do you think?

Thank you.

I'd try out different compressors to see if you find one that interacts more nicely with the XII rather than modify a vintage instrument to fit an existing pedalboard, to be honest. It's just the path of least resistance, but my general attitude with valuable vintage guitars is to keep them as original as possible (the only mod I have done to any of my vintage guitars is a Mastery bridge I put on a '66 Jag, because it's drop-in and can be swapped back with zero effect on originality or resale.

The only outboard compressor I have used is my Humphrey Audio modded Boss CS-3, and I haven't used it with a 12-string. The folks in the Effects subforum here would have much more useful feedback regarding pedals than I do. I just know from my experience with studio gear that some compressors (and even some really nice ones, when set up "wrong") introduce some very unpleasant artefacts. Can't say for certain what is happening in your case without sound samples...but, for example, the attack/release and compression ratio you have going on might be doing something as simple as amplifying string buzz relative to the string tone, or like I said earlier, it's sometimes just an intrinsic quality of the compressor that they introduce unpleasant distortion.

[akpasta]

Thanks for the tip, I'll make a post over there now, and yes I will try a couple more pedals before I try changing the pickups. Thank you for the advice.

[akpasta]

Yes, disturbing original solder joints does affect value.

I believe you are misinterpreting Curtis' description. His XII-FAT is a higher output, warmer sounding pickup than a stock XII. It just doesn't achieve that by simply overwinding, which boosts kids. It's a larger gauge wire which adds bass and thickness without too many mids.

It is significant bassier and warmer than a vintage XII pickup. It's for people who find the stock pickup too shrill and trebly. You clearly find that it is not trebly/jangly enough, in which case the XII-FAT is a terrible idea.

I own one. It's an extremely warm sounding single coil pickup. Probably the warmest Fender-style pickup I own.

Hello,

I tried the janglebox pedal last night. My review, it is a light compression pedal with a switch that adjusts high cuts, from "dark" "normal" and "bright" (no high's removed). The janglebox on the "bright" setting is making the guitar sound the best that it ever has, and a little experimentation has revealed that the distortion I was hearing with the Dynacomp was coming from adding highs and cutting lows and mids from the amp. For some reason those drastic EQ changes on the amp, after compression seems to distort the sound, but I don't understand why.

I have a question about the FAT pickups. I notice the stock XII pickups are low output in general (my dano lipstick pickups produce more sound for example). Curtis said the FAT pickups add bass AND treble, and scoop the mid. That would help me. But you are saying that FAT pickups mostly boost bass, which would be bad for me. Would you recommend the standard non-FAT pickup, wound lighter, to scoop the mids?

Would a higher output pickup distort less when EQ is added and cut from the amp?

[Embenny]

Yes, disturbing original solder joints does affect value.

I believe you are misinterpreting Curtis' description. His XII-FAT is a higher output, warmer sounding pickup than a stock XII. It just doesn't achieve that by simply overwinding, which boosts kids. It's a larger gauge wire which adds bass and thickness without too many mids.

It is significant bassier and warmer than a vintage XII pickup. It's for people who find the stock pickup too shrill and trebly. You clearly find that it is not trebly/jangly enough, in which case the XII-FAT is a terrible idea.

I own one. It's an extremely warm sounding single coil pickup. Probably the warmest Fender-style pickup I own.

Hello,

I tried the janglebox pedal last night. My review, it is a light compression pedal with a switch that adjusts high cuts, from "dark" "normal" and "bright" (no high's removed). The janglebox on the "bright" setting is making the guitar sound the best that it ever has, and a little experimentation has revealed that the distortion I was hearing with the Dynacomp was coming from adding highs and cutting lows and mids from the amp. For some reason those drastic EQ changes on the amp, after compression seems to distort the sound, but I don't understand why.

I have a question about the FAT pickups. I notice the stock XII pickups are low output in general (my dano lipstick pickups produce more sound for example). Curtis said the FAT pickups add bass AND treble, and scoop the mid. That would help me. But you are saying that FAT pickups mostly boost bass, which would be bad for me. Would you recommend the standard non-FAT pickup, wound lighter, to scoop the mids?

Would a higher output pickup distort less when EQ is added and cut from the amp?

I'm really glad you like the way it sounds with the new compressor.

My comment regarding the FAT pickup is based on the one I own, but I would 100% take Curtis' word that he can wind it for more of a scooped tone. He's a pickup magician - I own 5 of his pickups, and he has always found a way to accomplish what I've asked.

I've not experienced the interaction you've described between the pedal and the amp's EQ, so I don't really have any suggestion regarding that.

I'd still be nervous changing pickups on a vintage guitar that weren't broken to begin with, but I don't want to sound like a broken record on this.

I'm glad that you've gotten closer to the tone you've been chasing, though.

[akpasta]

Thanks for your vote of confidence in Curtis' abilities. I'm emailing with him to ask exactly what the pickups might do for my setup.

Do you have any suggestions for EQ options that can add highs and cut mids that won't distort the signal? Thank you!

[mick_e]

This may sound like a silly suggestion, but have you experimented with altering the pickup heights?

[akpasta]

It's a 12-string guitar, so you must use a compressor to get a good sound. I realize compression can be tricky. The pedals I am using don't have enough controls to fuck stuff up too much. I set the amp and compression pedals so they have the same volume, so I know that one is not driving the other (which can cause break up).

I have been using a Danelectro 12 string and MXR dynacomp, and getting really really great sounding clean jangle, almost no matter what amp/pedal settings I use.

The Fender XII breaks up really crunchy through both compressors I've tried, I can't get a clean compressed sound at all. The Janglebox helps add some highs that the guitar lacks, but it's still crunchy. The MXR is dark and crunchy, and when you EQ the shit out of the signal to get the highs back, you hear it even more.

There is nothing I can do with either of these compressors to get a clean sound out of the Fender XII.

When the guitar is going straight to the amp, it's cleaner, but it's still a little bit dirty, not super bright and clear.

Curtis Novak says these stock XII pickups are overwound, too tightly, and that is why they distort so easily.