Fender Electric XII Pickup Replacement

[Embenny]

If compression, and not pickups are causing this. How would you explain my getting a clean tone by lowering the pickups all the way? My understanding is that hot pickups can push an amp to distort quicker, so lowering them is like lowering "gain" on an amp or something. Curtis Novak says the stock pickups do this and his lower wound ones don't, so that's why I am trying those instead. I hope they work!

Pickups provide input gain. Lowering the input gain has a whole host of interactions with a compressor. For example, if your level had been high enough to cause clipping at the input stage, it will lessen that. But, lowering the input gain also affects where your signal lands relative to the threshold of the compressor. I just looked up the janglebox and dynacomp. They're both two-knob boxes. A compressor involves a threshold (dB), a compression ratio (x:1), attack (ms), release (ms), output gain (dB), and knee (hard vs soft).

Each of those two pedals has two knobs - (output) gain and attack on the JB, and (output) gain and sensitivity (threshold? Ratio? Unclear).

Dropping the input level by lowering the pickups is very crudely altering where your signal lands relative to the compressor's seemingly-unalterable threshold, and the fact that this sounds better to you is suggesting to me that your compressors are, well, compressing too much, or at too low a threshold.

Compression generally sounds best when it is transparent and almost undetectable. Squashing the hell out of a signal with preset release and ratio on a 2-knob pedal has never sounded good to me; I only owned one compressor pedal (a Humphrey Audio-modded CS-3), and only used it sparingly, at low settings.

12-strings put out a lot of signal. They have twice as many strings! The XII also has two small coils connected in series. I am not surprised that this drives pedals hard. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It just means you need the right pedal, or perhaps no pedal at all. Rics might sound nice with compression because their tone is notoriously transient-heavy (strong attack) with weaker decay (sustain). A Fender XII has a rounder, softer transient and relatively stronger decay. It's just a wildly different input signal, that cannot be expected to respond like a Ric - especially to compression.

[cestlamort]

I think he only means to replace the stock pickups with Novak XII pickups, rather than route stuff.

That said, I’d echo suggestions to do a full test of the electronics before replacing the pickups. A can of deoxit is way cheaper and could do the trick if there’s something funky in one of the connections.

I’d also try different compressors - a dynacomp is a blunt instrument here. Remember it’s a different guitar than a Rickenbacker, In pretty much every regard other than era and number of strings.

[Embenny]

I think he only means to replace the stock pickups with Novak XII pickups, rather than route stuff.

His last post talked about routing for lipsticks if the Novak's don't get it sounding the way he wants - and that he considers it "reversible" if the routing is hidden by the pickguard when put back to stock.

If they make the sound I want I am going to have the bridge adjusted a bit to space the strings out more as they rattle together easily above the 7-8th fets, and then I will have my perfect 12 string guitar. If the pickups don't do it, I will try a Ric. If I don't like the Ric I may buy a replacement pickguard to put different pickups in and have the body routed for other pickups, maybe lipstick pickups would be the least intrusive to this body. As to the "Caretaker" thing, I would only mod the guitar in a way where it could still be functionally returned to "stock." I don't care much for collector obsessiveness. If I can return a guitar to functional stock I consider it "preservation." But that's just me!! :-)

[cestlamort]

I think he only means to replace the stock pickups with Novak XII pickups, rather than route stuff.

His last post talked about routing for lipsticks if the Novak's don't get it sounding the way he wants - and that he considers it "reversible" if the routing is hidden by the pickguard when put back to stock.

If they make the sound I want I am going to have the bridge adjusted a bit to space the strings out more as they rattle together easily above the 7-8th fets, and then I will have my perfect 12 string guitar. If the pickups don't do it, I will try a Ric. If I don't like the Ric I may buy a replacement pickguard to put different pickups in and have the body routed for other pickups, maybe lipstick pickups would be the least intrusive to this body. As to the "Caretaker" thing, I would only mod the guitar in a way where it could still be functionally returned to "stock." I don't care much for collector obsessiveness. If I can return a guitar to functional stock I consider it "preservation." But that's just me!! :-)

Ouch. I stand corrected. OSG intervention before routing!!
Seriously: nothing wrong about not liking a guitar, but wrong to route stuff to literally fit a square pickup into a round hole.

[kalipigeon]

Since one-half of each of those pickups is in series with the other half (think P-bass), they all tend to sound midrange heavy, even the Novak rewinds. That said, he makes a great pickup. I've got a reimagined version of a XII that uses his pickups and the only time it gets close to the "jangle" that a Ric or Dano puts out is in middle position. Even then it still pushes an amp harder than any lipstick I've ever played.

(for reference, here is that build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=59744 )

The XII pickup design is powerful and not the best pairing for the massive output that a 12-string guitar provides. This design feels like it has the push on a preamp of something between a p90 and a pair of Jaguar pickups in series. These would have made great humbucker or p90 killers on a 6 string and I've always wondered why Fender didn't utilize them for that historically.

I would agree with the prevailing idea that if you like the tone of Ric and Dano 12 strings and the neck of the XII, you're best off custom building what you want. You could address the bridge issue that way as well rather easily. If you're not willing to look into a more controllable compressor and dead set on modifying the vintage model, I would recommend removing the entire vintage electronics package in as close to one piece as you can and replicating it with a series/parallel for each pickup. This could easily be done with a push/pull or push/push on each of the two knobs for independent control without losing the existing rotary selector modes. I've modified a Squier tele deluxe to use two P-bass pickups this way and the parallel tones are much closer (but not the same as) those lower output pickup types that you seem to prefer.

To test this type of change, you might try comparing the tones of a guitar that has a series/parallel mode through the compression you're having trouble with to see if that helps to clear up the issue by reducing the slam on the input stage.

[Embenny]

The XII pickup design is powerful and not the best pairing for the massive output that a 12-string guitar provides. This design feels like it has the push on a preamp of something between a p90 and a pair of Jaguar pickups in series. These would have made great humbucker or p90 killers on a 6 string and I've always wondered why Fender didn't utilize them for that historically.

I totally agree re: output of the XII pickups, Novak's, them being the p-bass of the guitar world, etc.

I apologize for the digression, but I have to mention that I put a pair of Novak XII and XII-FAT in a Jaguar, and the results were killer. In series, the neck, bridge and neck/bridge settings are indeed the truest answer Fender could have had to the P90. Fat, midrangey but still with clarity, and that rod-magnet attack that I prefer to bar magnet/screw-pole pickups. I also have switches in it that let me pair the individual halves of pickups in parallel, e.g. Neck pickup bass strings and bridge pickup treble strings, and vice versa. It makes some of the coolest sounds I've ever gotten out of a guitar.

[mgeek]

In this golden age of luthiery, where so many top-notch builders are making so many fantastic guitars, it simply makes no sense to me to start buggering up a rare pristine, unmodified vintage Fender.

I feel I have said all I can on thsee issues, and will stop repeating myself now.

Total agreement with this entire post, and reading this thread you'd think there were only three types of twelve string electric

I'm of the opinion people can mess up their vintage guitars as much as they want, but why come and post about it on the internet and ruin people's digestion!

Don't rickenbacker make wider neck models anyway? 660-12?

[øøøøøøø]

If compression, and not pickups are causing this. How would you explain my getting a clean tone by lowering the pickups all the way? My understanding is that hot pickups can push an amp to distort quicker, so lowering them is like lowering "gain" on an amp or something. Curtis Novak says the stock pickups do this and his lower wound ones don't, so that's why I am trying those instead. I hope they work!

One possible explanation would be that the Dyna Comp's non-adjustable input gain is (by design) too high for the guitar you're using, and that lowering the pickups is just a (very) crude way of turning the input to the compressor down (since they didn't give you a knob to do so). In short-- you're using a pedal that's ill-suited to your guitar.

Let's take a look at the schematic to the Dyna Comp:



You can see that there's one active (2N3904) stage right after the input which leads straight to the "heart" of the pedal: the differential VCA amplifier IC CA3080. There's no means of attenuating signal in advance of either of these stages. The CA3080 is biased by the internal trimmer, and this could cause artifacts if set improperly, but it's unlikely to be your problem (you'd more likely notice thumping and pumping if it were improperly set, distortion only in extreme cases).

You'll notice also that the "output" control is at the VERY end, and that the "sensitivity" control only operates inside the negative feedback loop of the differential amplifier-- in other words, neither one is an "input gain" control or can attenuate how hard your pickups hit the compressor.

For 95% of pickups, the level they chose might be OK. For yours it might not. They've "guessed" a typical pickup output level, and in your case, they guessed too low. That doesn't mean anything's wrong with your guitar-- it just means that you've selected the wrong compressor for the job.

An overwound pickup can indeed have more output than an underwound one, and if the guitar is plugged straight into the amp this extra output can push the amp harder. As soon as you have anything in the chain between the pickup and amp, the effect of the pickup's output on the amp becomes irrelevant, because:

1) either you set the pedal to attenuate the signal, rendering it no-longer-capable of distorting the first stage of the amp.
2) or you've set the pedal to boost the signal, meaning that the settings of the pedal (not the pickups) are what's responsible for hitting the front of the amp too hard
3) or the pedal is operating at unity gain, meaning the problem could be resolved by turning the pedal down.

If the pickup is distorting the pedal itself, you've got the input to the pedal turned up too high. If the pedal does not have adjustable input gain, you're using a pedal that's ill-suited to your specific application.

Curtis Novak makes great pickups. If he winds you a set of under-wound ones, I'm sure they'll be great and fundamentally of high quality.

But modifying and devaluing a $2500-$4000 guitar to suit the design shortcomings of a $99 compressor just seems like strange logic to me. In reality, you're undertaking a very difficult and expensive means of turning the input to your compressor "down."

[øøøøøøø]

And just to reiterate something that's been said earlier, because it bears repeating:

• Compression has arguably the longest learning curve of any signal processing.
• A compressor set improperly is the easiest way to ruin your signal.
• Even professional recordists who use compressors every day continue to refine and learn how to use them better.
• A compressor with fewer knobs gives you less control, and doesn't necessarily lead to better results.
• As your experience with compressors work, more knobs actually make them easier--not harder--to use
• However, a poor or inattentive setting on ANY one of those parameters can cause undesirable results

Here's a piece I wrote on compression that might be helpful to enhance overall understanding. The OP seems to have made his mind up already as to his course of action, but maybe someone else in the thread will find it helpful.

Cheers to all!

[Embenny]

But modifying and devaluing a $2500-$4000 guitar to suit the design shortcomings of a $99 compressor just seems like strange logic to me. In reality, you're undertaking a very difficult and expensive means of turning the input to your compressor "down."

Yes, thank you for distilling my several verbose posts into a succinct summary. That's exactly the point I was trying to make piecemeal through several posts.

[hansbrinker]

Don't rickenbacker make wider neck models anyway? 660-12?

Yes, the 660 series has a wider neck than the standard 330/360 semi-hollowbodies. But if, like me, you prefer the look, feel and sound of the larger body 330/360s, you have a few options.

First option is to check out the Rickenbacker 1993 Plus that has come out recently. It's a 360 model based on Pete Townshend's Rick, with a wider neck and a traditional f-hole (a la Rose Morris) than the typical cat's eye opening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnrVsxqKpBQ

The second option is what I did: I have a Jetglo 360-12v64 which I took to Joe Glaser's luthier shop, where he cut a new nut to make it more playable. Here's an article about the process:

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... ets?page=2

Though the neck on my 360 is still as narrow, the string pairings are closer together which makes it waaaaay more playable.

[nonesuch]

I’ve just tried my Electric XII with a couple of different compressors and amps to see if I can replicate any of the issues discussed.

The compressors I have are a MXR Super Comp (very similar to the Dyna Comp, but with an extra Attack control) and a JangleBox. The two amps I have tried are a Roland JC-40 and a Fender Blues Jr. With no compression the guitar is clean as a bell using both amps.

Using the MXR Super Comp I can’t get any distortion happening unless I max the attack control. According to the manual the attack knob should be at the minimum setting to replicate the Dyna Comp. With Attack set at minimum it does not distort.

With the JangleBox I couldn’t get it to distort even with everything on max.

I have also checked the pickup heights.The distance between the pickups and strings varies between 3mm and 5mm. (or approx 5mm above the pickguard)

I know the volume and tone pots on mine can get dusty and crackly quite often, and I realise it’s probably nothing as obvious as that, but there does seem to be some underlying problem here.

The string spacing has been mentioned and I do find that sometimes my finger can naturally pull the pair of strings together slightly, but not really enough to stop the note. This was my main gigging guitar for a couple of years, so technique and familiarity with the guitar certainly helps. I’d definitely live with it for a bit longer before trying to customise the saddles.

And for what it’s worth, the bridge pickup does produce some lovely Byrds-like jangle.

[mgeek]

I’ve just tried my Electric XII with a couple of different compressors and amps to see if I can replicate any of the issues discussed.

Great post, but you didn't replicate the *actual* issue going on here- that the OP asked for advice but had already decided he knew best, despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary

And yeah, not at all surprised to hear that you got a good sound out of it without distortion...I'm listening to one right now on Message from The Country by The Move and it they sound great.

[nonesuch]

Well it was my first post, so I thought I should be polite about the actual issue!

It would be interesting to know what is actually going on with this guitar, and why it seems to be producing such a poor output from the pickups. Can pickups go bad?

It’s also got me thinking that I can’t remember ever looking under the pickguard on mine - what kind kind of nightmare could a previous owner have inflicted?! Might have to have a look to put my mind at rest.

[mgeek]

Well it was my first post, so I thought I should be polite about the actual issue!

It would be interesting to know what is actually going on with this guitar, and why it seems to be producing such a poor output from the pickups. Can pickups go bad?

haha

Pickups *can* go bad- hofner pickups of a certain type were made with solder that corrodes and eats away at the coil. I've previously thought a pickup was bad but the tone control was stuck on 'always all rolled off', but as for 'creating distortion' then absolutely not, it's impossible.