NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Discussion of vintage Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Bass VIs, Electric XIIs and any other offset-waist instruments.
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NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by fendercollection » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:05 am

Hi all,

I'm posting this to spread the word because I came across a 1963 Jaguar in Blonde with Gold Hardware that is for sale here:
http://www.audiotoyshop.com/store/p396/ ... _OHSC.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This seller is not trustworthy and this is another example of a guitar being sold as "all original" when that is not the case. First off, the decal is a reproduction. Second, the hardware is not original to the guitar. This seller bought it from Southside guitars. Here is that original listing:
https://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-jaguar-1963-blond-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Southside replaced the hardware, which is wrong, but at least they had the ethics to say it's replaced.

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by bencrit » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:37 pm

The link to the shop doesn't work anymore. Must have gotten some word that you were pointing this out.

That Jag was here in the Pacific Northwest at Guitar Maniacs prior to this as well. It didn't have gold hardware at that time, but they did disclose the replaced decal.

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by eggwheat » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:54 pm

Audiotoyshop = atoyboy on eBay, so no surprise there.

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by Despot » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:46 am

Had the seller disclosed both issues (parts replaced with vintage gold parts & repro decal) would the asking price still have been right?

I'm wondering as the asking price on the CAR '67 B&B Jaguar that was originally for sale there (but which I bought elsewhere) was (iirc) 2,700 sterling - which is still a very good price for the issues that we eventually identified with it (partially restored decal and removed body name/decal). In fact, considering that someone is trying to shift a full refin '66 D&B Jaguar for 3,900 here on a local sales website, 2,700 sterling for an original CAR Jag with some minor issues seems right - and would have still been right had the issues been mentioned front and centre in the sales listing.

I know it's been mentioned that this particular seller tends to pick up guitars from ebay or US based vendors and relist them in the UK - to be honest, if the price is right ... I don't care. It saves me having to deal with the ball ache and total robbery that is Irish customs and excise duty (which seems to be totally random - but never less than 25% on the sale AND shipping price!). So ... if their price is right (and the issues are disclosed or identifiable) - I'd still buy from them.

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by Squirrel » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:40 am

eggwheat wrote:Audiotoyshop = atoyboy on eBay, so no surprise there.
Yeah, that seller is sketchy as fuck. I don't think I've ever seen him list a guitar that doesn't at least vaguely look like it's hiding something.

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by iainmayfield » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:43 pm

I have bought from this seller in the past - picked up a nice 1967 fender xii - I thought the price was good and its a fine guitar - the case was a bit shabby but that was mentioned in the listing - easily rectified with a new G&G vintage case shipped over to the uk from California. Some of the guitars are a bit pricey - but depends on how much you want it!

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by mgeek » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:22 am

http://www.audiotoyshop.com/store/p398/ ... _OHSC.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

re-posted with a more detailed description, fair play to the guy.

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by kapepper » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:47 am

this just clarifies that the whole "vintage market" is becoming a messy scene... what is authentic or not? Since back in Europe (Italy) i have become very cautious in buying vintage gear

what people really want more and more, especially for higher end guitar is provenance

my 1966 jazzmaster
Image

and the guitar with first owner from whom i bought it
Image

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by mgeek » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:32 am

kapepper wrote:this just clarifies that the whole "vintage market" is becoming a messy scene... what is authentic or not? Since back in Europe (Italy) i have become very cautious in buying vintage gear

what people really want more and more, especially for higher end guitar is provenance
Which frankly, is silly.

These things were pumped out of the factory in their thousands, they aren't Stradivarius's. Provenance is nice, but at this point I feel like the vintage guitar market is more and more just a bunch of buzzwords borrowed from the antique words stuck in a blender and shoved out to hype things that aren't rare in the slightest.

The provenance of any Fender guitar is 'bunch of bits made in a factory, bolted together',. ;D

If the finish is original and all the parts match up datewise, then that's all that should be considered.

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by Crshngdstryr » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:47 am

mgeek wrote:
kapepper wrote:this just clarifies that the whole "vintage market" is becoming a messy scene... what is authentic or not? Since back in Europe (Italy) i have become very cautious in buying vintage gear

what people really want more and more, especially for higher end guitar is provenance
Which frankly, is silly.

These things were pumped out of the factory in their thousands, they aren't Stradivarius's. Provenance is nice, but at this point I feel like the vintage guitar market is more and more just a bunch of buzzwords borrowed from the antique words stuck in a blender and shoved out to hype things that aren't rare in the slightest.

The provenance of any Fender guitar is 'bunch of bits made in a factory, bolted together',.

If the finish is original and all the parts match up datewise, then that's all that should be considered.
I agree with a lot of what you said here. I feel like the vintage market is going insane, with a few people with a ton of money buying up all these guitars, and somehow convincing the rest of us that (myself included sometimes) that these are worth the thousands and thousands of dollars they are going for. It's part of the reason why I'm slowly starting to hate guys like Joe Bonammassa and Norm Harris. A guy like Joe has no problem paying $20,000 for a strat, and all of a sudden any shop with a vintage strat thinks its worth $20,000, pricing 99.999% of us out of that market. I understand markets and economics and all, but it's getting ridiculous. I was sickened watching the video on YouTube of Norm's Rare Guitars having a bunch of offsets in storage just so he can wait 20 years til the price of them is jacked up before releasing them into the market. I understand that he's in a business, but it doesn't make it any less of a crappy thing to do. Guys like Joe, Norm, and Gruhn use terms like "examples" and "pieces" to describe guitars. They're fucking pieces of wood with electronics in them. Nothing more, nothing less. They just happened to get lucky that they bought them when they were fresh out of the factory and now have deluded themselves into thinking that they are smarter than the rest of us. They didn't know the vintage market would explode. Now they are hoarding them so that us regular people will never be able to have them. I read an interview of Gruhn where he said that he refuses to sell guitars to people who mod all-original vintage guitars. He said they are destroying the history of that guitar (paraphrasing). What's hilarious is that he's doing the same thing, just in a different way. How is modding a guitar so it's no longer "all-original" any worse then pricing a 57 strat at $80,000 so it never sells and thus remains on a guitar shop wall for the rest of its life? I'd say playing a modded guitar is way better than hoarding it so no one ever plays it. Don't get me wrong...if a guitar has some historical significance (for example, it was owned by Jimi or Jimmy) then yeah, those should be protected. But everything else is meant to be played, and by hoarding them so that they're unobtainable goes against everything that these guitar makers were all about (getting guitars into everyone's hands).

These vintage shops are disgusting and elitist. Again, I understand capitalism and economics; I am just talking about the morality of it all. And sorry for the long rambling rant.

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by bencrit » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:50 am

FYI, the listing is back up on Reverb.com as well and this time with a slightly more accurate description.

Stunning original Blonde body Fender Jaguar 1963 + GOLD Hardware + OHSC
https://reverb.com/item/5839524-stunnin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... dware-ohsc

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by amv » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:46 pm

The guitar is probably overpriced and it sounds like this guy's reputation is questionable, but man do those photos look gorgeous. I think this the one time gold hardware is totally justified; it blends with the tort and vintage white finish to create such an overwhelmingly warm vibe that I just want to reach into the screen and grab it.

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by eggwheat » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:48 am

Hah well that's a first..as reluctant as the new wording sounds! And still incorrect..how is it 'original'?

Just feel sorry for the other buyers who bought similar guitars from when he refused to change his listings.

How on earth could you not know that was a repro decal? Especially a dealer. These are the absolute rookie basics of vintage guitar dealing :fp:

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by amv » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:02 pm

Can anyone explain in more detail what makes the decal wrong?

I see a few things that don't look right: the "JAGUAR" letters are spaced out a lot more than early 60's decals I've seen (looking a bit more like the post-CBS spacing from the late 60's/70's), and the patent fine print looks like its placed incorrectly (although I wouldn't have noticed that without doing a direct comparison).

Is there anything more significant I'm not seeing?

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Re: NOT ORIGNAL PARTS 1963 Jaguar Blonde w/ Gold Hardware

Post by fendercollection » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:37 pm

Unfortunately it can be hard to tell wether or not some parts on Fenders actually originated from the factory on that guitar. But that's where it comes down to being an ethical dealer. I don't think it's okay to change parts on a Fender even if they are from the same era. Switching to gold hardware means you switch the serial plate. Just plain wrong. And this dealer in England bought the Jaguar from a guitar store in the U.S. who were the ones switching the hardware. At least they disclosed it...

...but then they put the original blonde Jaguar's serial plate on a 1963 sunburst Jag and sold that as "all original". Won't buy from either of these sellers ever again

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