advice needed: offset clay dots and handwritten date gone

[otis]

I've never really noticed this or payed attention to it, but does it happen more that vintage Fender necks have clay-dots that are off-centered from one another, not in the middle of the neck?
Also, how can I be sure it's a Fender neck when the written date at the base has gone after a refin?
In wich way does it devaluate the neck?
I'm checking out the guitar of the picture on Monday; can someone get back to me?
many thanks
Tom

[otis]

Can anyone react?; monday is close
what would you do when the handwritten neckdate was gone?
I'm just not sure...

[andrewaward]

what year is the guitar claiming to be?

[FrankRay]

If it's claiming to be a 61 or thereabouts, it might not have a written date anyway. Can't remember the exact parameters, but Fender stopped dating necks for a bit before the stamps came in around april 62. It doesn't look like a 61 though? As for the dots, never seen one with them out of line. I doubt it would get past QC. More likely to have had its fretboard replaced after heavy wear and tear. The frets look too big, too. I'd say if its after 62 and has a new fretboard, that would dramatically affect the price.

[zhivago]

I can't really tell anything from that picture

Do you have any more?

[andrewaward]

No dates for a period in 59.....and these necks spilled over into early 1960.

[otis]

Thanks a lot for your reactions!
The owner claims it is a '61, but it's very difficult to check since it's largely a partsmaster with no original hardware and all the handwriting on body and neck has gone.
He says he bought the body and neck stripped and he had it refretted with medium jumbos.
I guess I'll have to check it in person, compare the neck and the color and size of the dot inlays, neck wood, trussrod etc to my '64 and trust my gut-feeling on this one...
It's a bit disturbing though what you mention about QC, Frankray, and I guess my gutfeeling is allready pretty bad at this point.
I'll have a look at it anyway, and see what the owner has to say about it.
The neck has a nice ringed structure on the back.

[andrewaward]

That's a great looking flamey neck

You can look for the hole that should be under the tuners (apart from the screw holes)...........you should get a feel if the braz RW is original, should show signs of wear .
I've owned quite a few flamey JM necks from 61.

Really need more pics

[otis]

Thanks Andrew,
To check for a nailhole under the tuners is a very good suggestion.
Where is it exactly?
Here are all the pics I have; I doubt they will reveal more things, but on the other hand, I'm often surprised what the eye of the expert can see.
I'd have to remove the wrap^-around bridge, plug the holes, and redrill holes for thimbles in the right spot.
There's some work to it; but the only thing I'd need are bridge-thimbles to be able to use it.
anyway, thanks for the input everyone; I hope there's more to come
Thanks
Tom

[andrewaward]

The hole will be behind the D tuner..........

[otis]

The hole will be behind the D tuner..........

Thanks Andrew,
that seems like a very certain way to identify a Fender neck.
I appreciate your help.

[otis]

any other thoughts on the dot markers?
how could I detect a new fretboard, apart from that one dot that is out of place(wich isn't a certain indicator I think)?
Since the neck got new frets, the fretboard will probably be planed, so I don't count on playmarks really.

going to see the guitar in 10 hours or so...

also, what do you think would be a fair price (wiring harness is vintage+ 1961 pots, all the other hardware is (cheap) reissue;
pickups are from qpickups, a builder from croatia. they seem to be vintage-correct.
thanks
Tom

[otis]

ok, I searched for some 200 or more pre cbs Fenders pics and this is the only clear example I found with assymetrical dots





So they exist, but it very unlikely the neck of the blue jazzmaster will be authentic I guess...

[andrewaward]

I wouldn't get too hung up on the dots.............wait 'til you see it in person.

Old clay dots are quite unique - I think you'll know by looking at them if they have been replaced.........also look at the end of the fretboard (where it meets the body side) usually the fretboard is quite "bumpy" down there, from playing etc.

Value I'd say in this case is the sum of the vintage parts........how much is he asking?

[Despot]

Tom - Andrew knows his stuff ... he's had more than a few old guitars pass through his hands over the years. Don't get hung up on the dots lining up, instead try to gauge whether it looks/feels right.

The wear at the end of the fingerboard is a give away - it usually gets pitted and or rutted there (like little valleys in the end of the rosewood board). That's something that's a combination of play wear and dehydration and is difficult to replicate on a new board. But ... that NOT being there isn't an indicator either.

Take my own recent Jaguar as an example - we all started off thinking "ah hell - refin/messed with", and it turns out it was far less messed with than I thought - and yet it has a decal on it that it 100% shouldn't have if you were to go with the rules of which decal was used when - and that decal is legit/original to the guitar.

What I'm saying is that there are always outliers and exceptions - BUT remember that exceptions are rare, the norm is more usual ... so don't go reaching for exceptions to justify the legitimacy of a guitar if everything about it looks and feels wrong. That's how you get ripped off.

So ... approach with a sceptical mind, and if it doesn't seem right walk away. If something is too good to be true that most often means that it isn't what it's supposed to be.