CBS era quality

Discussion of vintage Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Bass VIs, Electric XIIs and any other offset-waist instruments.
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dm_cambridge_ma
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CBS era quality

Post by dm_cambridge_ma » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:36 am

Fender was bought by CBS in 1965, but when did the CBS era really start?
I can't imagine a switch was just thrown and immediately all guitars were junk. Changes to their process probably took some time.

Also, as much as CBS-era guitars are maligned, compared to pre CBS, what exactly is it about them that isn't so great? Can anyone speak from experience?

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by bencrit » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:52 am

I think the main reason the cbs era is disliked comes from a really bad time the later 70s when their quality control went downhill. This was true of both amps and guitars. This really bad time gets read back onto the later 60s and early seventies. I think there are subdivisions of the cbs era that should be outlined more clearly.

It's not like a switch flipped in '65 and suddenly things got bad. The best example of post-65 Fenders that are still loved and valuable are 68-69 starts (see Hendrix), and Telecasters that had Maple boards again (only ad rosewood from 59-64). Later blackface amps from the early cbs era are some of the most prized.

but overall, i believe the pre-65 guitars and amps are better overall. I like the look and feel of clay dots (on rosewood boards), nitro lacquer, etc. some of this is obviously subjective. But you can still find some real gems that are cheaper post 65.

For example, I once played a 1969 stratocaster that had a very thin poly finish, and looked and felt like nitro. It was a very light guitar and sounded awesome. At 7K I thought it was a steal for a fine vintage guitar.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by Donny » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:21 pm

I’m sure we all have our personal experiences … What I’ve learned from mine are:

* There are good guitars from all eras

* There are crummy guitars from all eras

* 1965-66 seems to truly be a transitional year in terms of quality (I’ve played a few ’65 dogs and a couple great ‘65s) … there also seems to be a lot more ’65-’66 Fender guitars at any given point

* The late ‘60s-early ‘70s Fenders are generally better than the mid-late ‘70s guitars

Short answer: With some exceptions, older generally equals better.

What exactly isn’t so great? Thick plastic-y finishes, heavier weight, microphonic pickups, crummy tuners, shoddy craftsmanship, etc. … basically, all the things that people care about in a guitar can be out of whack on some of them.

That said, even the worst of them have a "vibe" you can't get in a new guitar.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by Despot » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:32 am

I've had a few pre-CBS Fenders, and a few CBS Fenders (as I've had a few McCarthy era Gibsons and a few Norlin era Gibsons). And while I've played less clunkers from both 'golden' eras, I have also played guitars from both Gibson and Fender from their 'dark' years that were every bit as good as those from the 'best' periods.

That being said, the really bad vintage guitars I've played from both makers have come from their respective dark periods - boat anchor weight, dead/lifeless guitars.

I think the supposed golden eras increase the chances of you getting a better instrument if you blind buy - you're less likely to get something that's dead or heavy. But it's not a guarantee.

To put it in perspective, one of the best sounding/playing Jazzmasters I had was a '66 refin - which was a CBS guitar. I also had a '71 Jaguar that was great, and a '76 JM that while heavy, was a resonant and vibrant guitar. As it happens that JM was bought by Ryan Adams, so I guess he doesn't have an issue with great sounding CBS guitars either!

Gibsons have been even more consistent for me - but as most I've owned or played have been ES3xx model guitars (ES355 and ES345 in particular) there's an argument for saying that Gibson might have made a better effort on their higher end guitars from that period. The ES345 that I had (early '70s) was a really great guitar - the fact that it took an all original '62 ES345 to replace it speaks volumes about how good it was.

So, I guess in the end it's still buyer beware - but I wouldn't get sniffy about either CBS or Norlin era guitars (or Baldwin when it comes to Gretsch). The key is to try before you buy and approach each instrument with an open mind. If it's a good one it should jump out at you - the same way a guitar would from their 'better' years.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by MechaBulletBill » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:16 am

Strats and Jazz basses got the 3-bolt neck which CAN work just fine - see the Japanese made clones and modern 70s reissues - but because QC went out the window, you end up with an awful lot of misaligned necks. Strat tremolos changed to a cheap and crappy thing (perfectly replicated on my Tokai SS38, not replicated on better SS models like the SS60/80). Normal teles and P-basses didn't get any big revisions so are less likely to be rubbish (aside from usual points about weight/finish/big neck pockets).

The shop near me had two 79 Fenders, a Strat and Tele, both in 'natural' finish. The tele wasn't anything incredible but it was a proper, honest telecaster in sound and feel. The strat is like two les pauls, it is ridiculous. The tele sold right away but the strat is still there. Interestingly, the same shop acquired a 79-anniversary strat and that was a really pleasant weight with much tighter quality overall.

I'm sure there was a time before eBay where a lot of meatspace shops had 70s Fenders for sale at reasonable prices (compared to today) which could at worst be cannibalised and frankensteined into good instruments, but these days you're better investing in the ever-appreciating lawsuit guitars that are far more consistent in quality.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by surfingonacid » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:42 am

I've tried them from all eras and know people personally who were playing in the 50s-70s.
When my uncle bought his Strat in 1961/62 (UK) he had never even seen a Fender guitar other than a Jazzmaster and a couple of blonde Showman amps while on tour in Germany. He ordered the Strat because he saw one on the cover of that one Buddy Holly album and he was a big fan.
My dad bought his Strat used in 1970-71 (it's a 68-69) and when he was in a band with his brother he used to think that 1961/62 Strat looked so old fashioned with the small headstock and fiesta red finish.
I have never heard my uncle complain about any Fender guitars from the 60s, only 70s ones because of the changes.
The changes: My dad worked in the warehouse for Dallas Arbiter (music shop) in London in the early 1970s. He only noticed the difference in quality when he noticed the difference in appearance and feel. He immediately thought the 3 bolt neck and the bullet truss rod looked weird. The Silverface amps are another story. My dad and others he knew liked them, especially the JBL models. In the 70s you started to see a lot more Fender amps with JBL speakers. My dad could never afford one though. Back then no one knew about the changes to the circuits in the amps. I don't really know when people started to say they didn't sound as good as the earlier amps because I have only ever heard people say that who weren't even born yet.

After the CBS take-over you just started seeing more Fenders everywhere. Production increased, but the instruments were still pretty decent. Just like with any production line that increases there are going to be more examples to criticize and a few that slip through quality control. And since there's less earlier models, the prices are much higher so they MUST be good, right??
A lot of people don't like change to something that doesn't need to change. But like most companies, they're going to start changing things to existing products to make something 'new' again.

To me it seems there's a lot of people out there who bash CBS era Fender gear for their quality just because it's become a trend. Hell, Eric Clapton said in the 70s/80s that no one wanted old Fenders and he was buying them up in pawn shops for hardly anything, yet people were buying brand new Fenders all the time. I think it is easier to criticize this stuff years later while looking back at it and also comparing the way things/society was. The 60s were a cooler time than the 70s so also has something to do with it. I reason I like the 60s Fenders the most because that's my favourite era of music so the tools and the sounds of that era go hand in hand.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by mgeek » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:51 am

Whilst there is a level of opinion involved in all of this, I refuse to believe that there would be a late seventies Fender everyone here would agree is a killer guitar.

Without exception, every single late seventies Fender I've held, touched, played has got a thick finish glooped over the body and neck and weighed a tonne, both of which are negatives to me.

Even supposing there is a 'dream example' out there that somehow got magical pickups, a super tight neck join, perfect neck shape etc etc, those couple of basic, across the board details have a huge impact on the feel. Not that I couldn't overlook it and enjoy owning one maybe, but as a direct comparison to earlier models they just aren't as good. Hell you could take a 1950 Broadcaster and give it a factory refin circa '77 and it would feel shit.

I guess I'm saying- it's less the 'quality' as such that's the issue and more the decisions made re: finish material and woods used that cause them to be less enjoyable instruments. As a reverse to the '50 Broadcaster example above, I'm equally sure that it'd be possible to take the bare bones of a late seventies Fender, refinish and tweak it a bit and have something that felt genuinely awesome.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by will » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:37 pm

This is totally one of those "can of worms" topics - for fans of Fender guitars, the whole decline through the CBS years can be pretty sad to see. I think the best advice I could give is to visit a few guitar shops that have a decent used/vintage selection and check out a few examples in person. If you aren't too familiar with Fenders, they can all look pretty much the same in an internet photo. ...but if you have a chance to hoist up a boat anchor of a 1970's Strat and peer into its Grand-Canyon-sized neck pocket gap, all of this forum talk might make more sense. Here's what I've noticed, and what time it seems to correspond to:


1963-67
over this time headstocks get incrementally thicker. On early guitars, the Klusons fit so that their tapered string posts are above the bushings, but by '67 it looks like they've just had a dip in a cold swimming pool. The tuner placement is also revised a bit so that they are mounted farther from the edge. I've heard that this was a response to warranty repairs over cracking headstocks.

1964-onward
It seems like every new model tries to make a show of how many pickguard screws can be used to hold down a pickguard - Tele, Strat, Mustang, Electric XII. 8, 11, 12, 17. Really - seventeen screws! This was almost certainly a response to the problem of warped pickguards.

1965-67
The body contours become less pronounced - the pre-CBS Jaguars I've had seem like the belly contour has been worked so that the edge of the body is super-thin, but later guitars start getting less graceful. ...less time spent shaping bodies = less labor time, less worn-out sanding belts/discs. The end of the neck near the nut starts getting less shaped - at first it has a bit of a convex shape to it, but eventually it becomes an easier-to-shape 2D curve.

1967-1973 or so
Nitro Lacquer starts getting replaced by all sorts of plastic-feeling finishes. This seems to be pretty variable - some finishes are better than others as Fender tried out different new formulas. Some are pretty difficult to tell from nitro - they actually look pretty darn good! ...others are kinda gloopy and look like they were never buffed out. Sometimes, nitro seems to pop up on a newer guitar - I have a '73 Musicmaster bass neck that was finished in nitro, and has an older-style date stamp. All of this variation leads to...

1966-mid 1970's
Neck pocket fit just keeps getting worse and worse. Pre CBS Fenders I've had the pleasure to disassemble seem to have necks that fit either snugly or have a teensy gap. As the old router templates wore out and the finish thickness became unpredictable, Fender started making guitars with wider, sloppier neck pockets. I had a 70's Jaguar with a gap if about 1/8"! Fender also switched some models so that their pockets were routed with a larger bit, so the bottom of the neck pocket was no longer the same shape as the neck.

1966-onward
Wood started getting junkier and heavier. Older Fenders...I've come across some with knots in the wood, but they were all surprises revealed when solid colors were stripped away. As time goes on, Fenders started trying to use inferior woods hidden under more opaque sunbursts, and even weird butcher-block bodies with totally fake "fauxburst" finishes. In the 70's ash came back, but now it was heavy enough to use as a weapon of bludgeoning.

1968-69
Cloth wire switches out for plastic insulation. Not too big a deal, but that cloth wire is kinda pretty.

late 60's-late70's
The number of color options dwindles to just a few choices. The catalog no longer looks like a spilled bag of Skittles. So sad.


Whew! That's all I can think of off the top of my head. That being said, there are some nice 70's Fenders out there, it's just that I wouldn't count on them being nice sight-unseen.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by spacecadet » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:07 pm

In 1965 bodies switched from 2-3 pieces of wood to 3-4 and they're not as well matched, leading to the "target burst" and then the "faux burst" to hide the mismatched wood. (Some people, including me, like this look.)

Pickguards were also changed from nitro to vinyl in 1965. (Not necessarily a bad thing, just a change.) The color changed along with this, though, of both tort and "white".

Additionally, the dots changed to pearloid and neck binding was added to the offsets. Again, these are not bad things, but they are changes.

In 1966 the headstock was enlarged. Dots were also changed to blocks.

In 1967 the finish was switched to poly from nitro.

Sometime in the late 60's, Fender switched from Kluson tuners to F tuners or Grovers.

In 1971 the 3 bolt neck was introduced (though not on the offset line that I know of).

In 1970 or 1971 a second string tree was added. (And you have to imagine there was a reason for that.)

There were also some changes to the pickups in the late 60's, though I don't fully understand them myself so I don't know how they affected sound. Something about the potting material or process changed, to make it cheaper.

Anecdotally guitars got heavier through the CBS era as well, until by the 1970's you start seeing stuff like 10 lb. Jazzmasters.

I guess to answer the original question, yes there were immediate changes, although not all of them were negative initially. I feel like early on, for every change that could be perceived as negative (like the bigger headstock or the mismatched wood), they'd try to do something to either cover it up or distract from it somewhere else.

But as time went on, they just started doing things that were more universally disliked and they didn't bother trying to balance it out.

I'd say the "real" CBS era probably started in around 1967, in terms of stuff happening that you probably would rather not happen if you had a choice. I mean I don't really mind poly, but I'd *rather* have a nitro finished guitar so to me that was a definite downgrade.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by Despot » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:42 am

mgeek wrote:Whilst there is a level of opinion involved in all of this, I refuse to believe that there would be a late seventies Fender everyone here would agree is a killer guitar.

Without exception, every single late seventies Fender I've held, touched, played has got a thick finish glooped over the body and neck and weighed a tonne, both of which are negatives to me.
So, I can offer an opinion on this one.

I bought a '76 Tele Custom from a guy here in Dublin. It had a finish that was quite thin (it had started to flake off in little chunks) and was lighter than any Tele I've had or held before. The guy in question also has a pre-CBS Telecaster (CAR for anyone who's interested - so an expensive guitar that he was lucky enough to buy years back for a pretty good price). They were the same weight. The pre-CBS Telecaster won in terms of the neck feel, as the lacquer had worn down, but the neck shape went to the '76 (as it had a great big U neck which I love on Telecasters).

Through an amp their sounds were different, but both were great. The '76 bridge pickup had a lot more bite to it, and obviously you can't compare the neck pickups as the '76 had a WRHB.

In terms of weight and resonance unplugged it was a hands down winner - the '76. That guitar rang like a bell when you hit it - and it had as tight a neck join as any modern CS Fender.

That being said, I did sell it. The main reason for that was that at the time there was something else I wanted more than that Tele. I actually regret selling it to this day, as every other Telecaster I've tried since then has been a pale shade of that one.

But was that '76 the rule or the exception? Based on the other late '70s boat anchors I've played, it was the exception. But for me at least it does prove that there are '70s guitars out there that measure up against the golden year examples.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by MechaBulletBill » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:35 am

mgeek wrote:I'm equally sure that it'd be possible to take the bare bones of a late seventies Fender, refinish and tweak it a bit and have something that felt genuinely awesome.
But the collector-inflated value of that guitar today (versus, say, 20 yrs ago) means that it isn't cost-effective to harvest the good bits of anything older than about 1985 with the F-word on it. You'd be better off going with an older MIJ (although prices are already pretty high on certain models due to their rarity outside of Japan) or spending similar money on something new.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by ChrisFFTA » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:00 am

My rule for vintage guitars of any era and brand is simple. If it's in mint condish, it's for a reason. Likely not played for a reason.

My favourite Fender is a 73 Thinline fave Gibson is a 76 LP Deluxe. Both are glorious but both considered to be from the dog period of guitar making.
Last edited by ChrisFFTA on Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by simonhpieman » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:35 am

I can only tell you my personal experience from what I tried out when buying my '73 JM.


1) 1967 (so I was told) sunburst JM, fauxburst. It sounded awesome, had a slightly warped pickguard, played really well. Nicest JM I've played. I think it had a transition headstock logo as well - will have to check that when I get home. Went later that week on eBay for about £1900 - more than I wanted to pay at the time. D'oh.

2) 1970 Jag, tried out on Denmark Street, sunburst (not fauxburst). I liked it but ummed and aahed for a few days. I phoned back later that week to say I'd like to take it but bastard Paul McCartney's bastard son had been in and bought it. About £1600 if I recall correctly.

3) 1969 Jag and 1969 JM pair, identical twins! Both fauxburst. Neither of these guitars really grabbed me and I can't really say why. Just seemed a bit dead. They were £2200 each as I recall.

4) 1973 JM, some kind of Lake Placid blue/turquoise/ice blue. Has a decent feel, though not the greatest I've EVER played. It's not helped by the fact that the neck has been damaged slightly by the "case" it was sold with. Definitely poly finish but not bad and it's a very pretty colour. I intend to do a proper thread on it soon with pics and audio. Sounds the dogs wotsits, too. Combined with how lovely it looks, that's more than enough for me!


What I would say is that none of the guitars had any obvious neck pocket issues or anything else but maybe I was lucky.

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:48 pm

Appreciate hearing peoples actual experiences of these guitars.

Thanks

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Re: CBS era quality

Post by spacecadet » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:49 pm

simonhpieman wrote:4) 1973 JM, some kind of Lake Placid blue/turquoise/ice blue. Has a decent feel, though not the greatest I've EVER played. It's not helped by the fact that the neck has been damaged slightly by the "case" it was sold with. Definitely poly finish but not bad and it's a very pretty colour.
Yeah, Fender by then were actually advertising a "thick-skin" finish - funny that it's exactly the opposite of what they say now!

I didn't actually realize that Fender made LPB JM's in 1973 but it is on the color chart (only real custom color left besides CAR) and here's an apparent photo set of one:

http://www.nationwideguitars.com/1973fe ... erlpb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks pretty nice. You can see some of the changes - you can definitely see the thicker finish, along with the foil shielding on the pickguard, and a few other things. But it's definitely a unique look, with that color, the big unpainted headstock, the blocks and the binding. You won't get that look from any other era but around 67-73 or so.

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