Bringing Vocals Forth - FINAL MIX Paqe 4

[Larry Mal]

I seem to be hearing the vocals a lot more on the right speaker than I am on the left, and the guitar is panned left quite a bit more than right? Where do you have the vocals panned?

[fuzzjunkie]

That sounds much better, the song is breathing now and I can hear vocal inflections that I couldn't before.

Yes, I was talking about the echoes on the break. I couldn't tell if it was running through the whole song or just at that point and thought if it was going throughout that it could be pushing the vocals back. I also had the sense that the echoes were off tempo, but that just might have been the initial surprise of hearing them. They seemed different than the echo used on the guitar at the end.

If you wanted to, you could probably bring that guitar up a bit to accent it because the vocals have dropped out at that point and it's competing with the keyboards, but the echoes are pushing it back a bit.

[fuzzjunkie]

Double post.

[fuzzking]

First of all, I really like the singer's voice and her style. Cool tune.

Listened via good speakers and headphones. When I turn the volume down, I hear mainly high end. I'd tame that a bit.

Drums could use some bus compression and maybe a tad of reverb IMHO (maybe something roomy? Bigger reverb on snare?). Tad too quiet in relationship to other instruments. They seem to have little tone to them.
Synth is overpowering sometimes, also in the high end. I'd give it a big plate reverb. Also it has a very sharp attack. I'd put a compressor with fast attack on it. Or try a de-esser. Some tape simulation.
Rhythm guitars are also somewhat attacky. Have you used heavy compression with slow attack?
As said, I really like the vocals. At 2:30 the vocals are suddenly louder (?)
I like the guitar at 3:40, but it sounds out of context somehow - maybe because everything is totally in your face and the guitar suddenly has this giant reverb.

I'd start out with the drums and bass and make the hoppy rhythm jump out a bit more.
Then add vocals. Try two similar longer reverbs for snare and vocals.
Then guitars. Synth is icing on the cake and could use a similar longer reverb.

I think the mix on 'the later track (plastic hearts) sounds much more balanced. Warmer, roomier, less harsh.

EDIT:
I think bass and drums don't go that well together, timing-wise.

[fuzzking]

Couldn't resist and molested your mix. Sorry.

Linky

It's early in the morning here and I can't turn the volume up as much as I'd like to, and I've totally overdone it... just wanted to bring my points across with the reworking. It's overcompressed and the settings do the bass no good, haha, but I concentrated on vocals and snare alone when setting the compressor. I think if you manage to get bass and drums to be tight and snappy, you're halfway there. There's tons of reverb on everything, but I think vocals and and snare could use a comparable amount. I used a long pre-delay so the vocals don't get drowned although there's tons of reverb (as mentioned in my earlier post). I send everything through a tape simulation to get rid of what sounds like too many high frequencies (on my system, that is) and to glue everything together. Again, overdone, but I wanted the difference to be really audible. Just listened to your first mix, and I think lots of stuff sounds better there (e.g., on the 2nd one the guitar's transients are too spikey IMHO).

Hope you're not upset that I messed around with your stuff, and that this maybe helps a little. Btw, did you mix on headphones? I really really like the music.... good stuff!

[fuzzking]

Gave the remix a fresh listen. I was a bit sleep yesterday night... haha. Forget my comment about everything being too trebly. I think it's really the transients on synth and guitar that I find a bit too much. Still, I think it would be great if you managed to lock bass and drums nicely together, it would serve the song to a great degree. I think the guitars could have somewhat more lower mids, so you can turn them up without getting too much in the way of the vocals. Maybe let synth and vocal sit in the same/a similar frequency spectrum. Of course, however you decide about reverb etc depends on the band's preference. Blah blah... I'm a bit obsessed with the tune (throrough hit qualities). Looking forward to what you'll come up with.

[fuzzking]

^Jeebus, Brad, man... great reply. You're good with words. And thinkings.
Can I post a snippet when I start working on my recordings end of the year?

[rhythmjones]

And I'm really appreciative of everyone taking the time and energy to help me out. Thanks everyone.

Hopefully I'll have some time to mix this weekend and bring a new mix for y'all.

[rhythmjones]

I took Brad's advice and did a completely fresh remix from naked tracks. Per the advice I've received in this thread, I took a renewed approach to compression, eq, panning and balance.

I think the mix is really refreshing. Thanks so much for all of your advice. I'd love to continue to hear what you guys think sucks about it!

Here's the link:

https://soundcloud.com/rhythmjones/plas ... 615-951-pm

[Larry Mal]

Those are good thoughts, Brad. We may have disagreed earlier but it's easy to see that you certainly do know your stuff with this, and I'll be keeping an eye on the thread watching your guidance and learning as well.

[rhythmjones]

There are two mics on the vocals. I thought I reversed the phase on them on the outboard side. Maybe I goofed that up. I could try eliminating one, or reversing the phase on one. I had them hard panned in the original mix. I put them in the middle in this mix. I used CLR in the original mix, and really centered a lot of things up for this one. I can play with some stereo space with the guitar and synth tracks maybe, or pan the vocals again. What would be the best approach for that?

Actually, we've decided to go ahead and rerecord the vocals, since the singer is not satisfied with her performance. So I'll pay close attention to phase, or maybe just use one mic this time.

I'll be back with an update when that happens.

Thanks again everyone!

[Larry Mal]

I was going to hang back and not muddy the waters too much, since you are getting such good advice from Brad and there's no reason to be given a bunch of possibly conflicting advice that would only confuse.

But, if you are planning on re-recording the vocals, do give some thought to layering the vocals.

[rhythmjones]

I was going to hang back and not muddy the waters too much, since you are getting such good advice from Brad and there's no reason to be given a bunch of possibly conflicting advice that would only confuse.

But, if you are planning on re-recording the vocals, do give some thought to layering the vocals.

I'm happy to hear what you have to say Larry!

[Larry Mal]

To understand the best course with the vocals, It's worth asking-- why two microphones? Is there something specific you were trying to accomplish with this?

I ask what the goal is because I wonder if there's another way to accomplish that goal. And I wonder that because very rarely have I seen a multi-mic technique on vocal that worked well.

I'm going to double Brad's point there, putting two microphones on a singer isn't something that you would just immediately do, you'd need to have a very specific idea of what you were going for with that. Like, off the top of my head, if the room wasn't amazing, then there'd by little reason to capture that unless the natural reverb was something that you really wanted. Even if you did, you'd need to build the mix around that, it could seem kind of odd to have a bunch of things close mic'd and direct in and then all of a sudden there's a singer performing in a clearly different acoustic space.

This is the pre-production part of it that I haven't touched until now, but it's best to go into it with an idea of what kind of end result you want before you even start.

Not only that, but it's best to have a good idea of what all the parts were to be with an idea of what the end recording would be. I mentioned reductive EQ and making a "space" for the vocals and such, but I was also making a lot of assumptions about this project and where the project was, that is to say, I had assumed that it was already completely recorded and only the mix and whatever mastering was the next steps.

But of course as has been pointed out, a much better way is to have a good mix in the instruments even before you record it. This isn't specific to your project or song, but a good example would be to say, get the guitar chords out playing first position full barre chords and move it a little further down the neck and playing less strings. This is only an example: but the guitar is actually an instrument with a very deep range, and it can easily overlap with the bass instruments. A lot of us don't think about that. But the best way to have a good mix is to actually have the mix built into the song.

Bear in mind that these are only examples... there's nothing wrong with first position barre chords, and if that's what the song calls for, then that's what you do. But maybe not everyone needs to be living in the same space, performance-wise.

And then there is the recording. You are doing this yourself, so you don't have access to a ton of microphones I'd reckon, but there's a reason why studios have so many, and it's because the engineers there know what microphones will capture the frequencies that they want to emphasize and in some cases downplay frequencies that they don't want to. And that's just the choice of microphone, there's as much technique in the placing and utilization of the microphones as well.

So Brad had a pretty good point a while back, I was talking about using reductive EQ as being the way to make some sonic space, but this is actually by far the worst method. It might be necessary, but the very best way to approach a mix is simply to have to do as little actual mixing as possible, ideally, you'd capture the performance so well that as few knobs as possible are turned in the mix down.

But I assumed that you already had the recording done and simply needed to get the vocals more present. But it seems that you are still working on the material, so maybe give that a bit of thought. I'm not saying you haven't or anything, but it's always a good idea to keep it in the front of your mind.

[fuzzking]

^ Good advice as always.

Hmmm... apart from the technical stuff, I really don't think the vocal performance to be the cause of the 'issues'. I'd rather re-record the rhythm section and make them pump out the groove that they intended to play. Not to step on anyone's toes, but... no kidding. Tighter and with a tad more morale. Maybe let the rhythm section play the song alone for a few times and let them find the place where they really lock in together. I think the song begs for it. I find the vocal pretty charming as is (just use the best mic), and apart from the real catchy composition, I think the vocal is actually the best thing you have there. If re-recording the rhythm section is not an option, first thing I'd try to do would be editing drums and bass for a better foundation. I'm kind of convinced that you can mix this until the end of days... and finally you'll re-record, because the band is capable of better.

Of course, just my 2p, as always.