Drummer can not keep a beat..

Get that song on tape! Errr... disk?
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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by ruraldave » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:09 am

I appreciate all the feed back! I'm sort of indifferent about he whole thing but for the record he and I are not what I would call friends since we do not really hang out outside of practice (in two years we have only had one interaction outside of practice or gigs).

Is he good enough..YA I guess, after all I'm no Hendrix so who am I to judge. But our bass player is fed up and has been trying to make the case to give someone else a try. So after he has pointed all these problems out, the sloppy and uncreative fills, missing changes (that sort of thing) It's hard to not hear it now in demos or live recordings. We have not played together for 2 months due to scheduling that's why we have been recording and my memory of practices past although fuzzy now is reflected in the problems I now hear. So I was looking for feed back as to how others would feel in this situation. I probably could have been more succinct in my quandary.
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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by rumfoord » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:22 am

Since you already have a recording with everything but drums..maybe it would be a good idea to audition a few drummers with that(/those) track(s). Maybe you'll find that it's not so easy to find someone that can do what you're hoping. Or maybe you'll find somebody that makes it all look easy.

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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:43 am

I think you need a different approach. What I would do is, and there's no guarantees with this either:

Record the drummer with whatever other instruments are necessary for him to play to. The quickest approach would be the drummer recording along with the bass player, playing the song same as they ever would, with the drum kid mic'd and the bass player recording (and this is important) direct in only. That way the drummer hears the bassist on his headphones but the bass doesn't bleed into the drum kit recording. You are recording the bass player because why not, but it's not important how it sounds at the moment because he'll be re-recording it more than likely anyway.

And once you have the scratch bass track and more importably the drum track laid down, then it's time to start building the song over that. Probably the bass player and guitarist would lay down their tracks, vocals and keyboards next and so on. It doesn't have to be in that order, whatever works for you and the song is what's important here.

If the drummer needs more than just a bass scratch track to record to, then get a guitarist to (again) record a part also direct in, a scratch part also. Or a keyboardist or whatever. Just so that it can be direct in. These are scratch tracks! No acoustic instruments or anything that will bleed into the finished drum recording.

Keep the drum recording clean and try to isolate the main parts, the kick, and the snare especially. Get a dedicated microphone on at least those two parts of the kit, and you really want to do the same with the hat. The reason for this is because if he can't play in time even with the scratch tracks, then you are going to have to use a DAW to tighten up his performance so that it's usable. That's not easy to do, but it's possible. It's also likely that none of you know how to do that. But regardless, you can find someone else to do it for you but it will all be useless if you don't have a good drum track to work with, and that means: no bleed!

You probably won't have to worry about drum replacement and editing, though. That's a spare tire scenario here. It's more than likely that your drummer will give you a good drum track to build on if he can play along with the bassist's and guitarist's scratch tracks.

This is a lot easier than making him conform to a click track. I have no idea why you are even trying that. I've been a drummer and playing to a click track is a very dedicated skill, and a good one, but not one that really comes into play for most drummers. That is to say, if you play drums in a band and record a little, chances are you aren't ready to play to a click track. Most drummers aren't. I'm not. Like I say, it's a highly specialized skill and those that can do it are pretty in demand drummers who aren't playing for free.

If none of this works, if you can't get a usable drum part out of this guy even with scratch tracks, with drum replacement and editing should you need that, with a click track and any of it? Then you have an awful drummer, and there's no further hope.
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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by soggy mittens » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:42 pm

Have you tried talking to him about it? Ask him what he thinks of his drumming, airing your concerns. If he doesn't think there is a problem but you do and you express that then that might make it easier to say you are thinking of looking elsewhere.
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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by øøøøøøø » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:34 am

Before you shitcan the whole project and fire the drummer (which might have to happen in the end), there's one last thing you can try--

Program other rhythmic stuff along with the click track to supplement/replace it.

In other words, what about using a shaker or tambourine loop that subdivides the beat, instead of just a click track on the beat? Or if the style is appropriate, what about a MIDI-sync'd synth arpeggiator pattern in 16th notes, or anything like that really.

In other words, give the drummer some timekeeping music to play along with, in addition to (or, if he can manage it, INSTEAD OF) a cold, brash click. Maybe that will help. At the very least, it will enable a more artistically inspired performance, which... well, if we're having a hard time even staying at the right tempo, that might be an optimistic aspiration, but....

Finally, do make sure the cue mix is right. If your drummer can't HEAR the click, it will make it very difficult to play with it. Adding drums to pre-recorded music is certainly non-ideal, but a good drummer can do it. The techniques above can help make it easier even in those cases.

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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by fuzzjunkie » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:43 am

I would try to simplify things for him. See if he can play just the kick and snare to the click track. A few simple fills leading into sections. If he can do that, then overdub hi-hat, cymbals and tom rolls.

The results might not be as organic sounding as playing the whole kit at once, but playing to a click rarely sounds organic anyway. Hopefully he has a standard kit and not a 14-16 piece kit that he wants 18 mics on, because then he would probably have hurt feelings at the "dumb it down" approach.

There are stories of producers recording just one piece of the drum kit at a time to individual tracks though, so it can be done.

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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by ruraldave » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:57 am

Thanks for the ideas I'll give them to the guy doing the recording. I know that he removed the click and put in a generic drum beat (garage band) to give it a try but after 5 times trying it he could not do it either.
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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:26 am

Let's put that down as a bad sign.
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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by ruraldave » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:54 am

Larry Mal wrote:Let's put that down as a bad sign.
Ya that was my thought when I got the email this am...
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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by jorri » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:49 am

Recording to a metronome is not the same skill as keeping to a beat. It just takes specific practice. Being metronomic is not that desired anyway, there's moving from being an organic metronome for the band, to having to follow a machine being a metronome.

Usually either drums go first, OR you can do things live, or part live. The ability to separate instruments or reamp will determine this. But its good to go in with no click, at the minimum bass (usually the best DI'd) or strong rhythm instrument. Even if the live guitars aren't on recording, they could even be just going through headphones and not to a track if there is limited recording function..it also helps a consensus of actual tempo, certain tempos work for some band members and not others its only when you have all the parts together where you can decide where the common ground is, because some parts will just not work or be suddenly difficult to play if its too fast or slow, whilst for the other instruments this might not be the case...it gives a more solid and organic drum approach. Question is whether they keep in time live.

Listening to a few producers though, it happens quite a lot that they get impatient and just loop a selection, quantise or even replace with samples and have the drummer not notice it wasn't what they played. Things like getting the guitarist to play bass in secret because the bass player can't play properly, and no one being any of the wiser...rather than going behind his back, well he might be OK with doing that though?

And i've also recorded guitar to a click, to find I think it sounds in time, but when drums are added, it turns out actually the guitars were not in time, its just less noticeable when they are singled out to a click, if it must be done a simple looped beat is easier to stay in time with. Otherwise there's no definite thing to latch onto and tell you are out.

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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by 017493816 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:27 am

Fire fire fire. ;) Loads of good drummers out there.

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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by RuffiansFC » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:32 am

øøøøøøø wrote:Before you shitcan the whole project and fire the drummer (which might have to happen in the end), there's one last thing you can try--

Program other rhythmic stuff along with the click track to supplement/replace it.

In other words, what about using a shaker or tambourine loop that subdivides the beat, instead of just a click track on the beat? Or if the style is appropriate, what about a MIDI-sync'd synth arpeggiator pattern in 16th notes, or anything like that really.

In other words, give the drummer some timekeeping music to play along with, in addition to (or, if he can manage it, INSTEAD OF) a cold, brash click. Maybe that will help. At the very least, it will enable a more artistically inspired performance, which... well, if we're having a hard time even staying at the right tempo, that might be an optimistic aspiration, but....

Finally, do make sure the cue mix is right. If your drummer can't HEAR the click, it will make it very difficult to play with it. Adding drums to pre-recorded music is certainly non-ideal, but a good drummer can do it. The techniques above can help make it easier even in those cases.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

Thankfully, my drummer can play to a click, play to recorded tracks, basically can do it all. The best takes I ever get are when I have my demo track (with basic drum loops) and he records his part. It is basically like jamming along to a CD/ipod/etc. Adding another percussion element or basic drum loops are a lot easier to follow than that sharp 1/4 note beep.

if that doesn't work, find an electric kit with midi, buy EZDrummer, and fix any bad notes. I had to do that with our old drummer, because she was all over the place. The tracks ended up sounding pretty organic after everything was lined up.

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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by fuzzking » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:49 am

Altar wrote:Fire fire fire. Loads of good drummers out there.
I actually find the opposite to be true... but that's just my experience and maybe the opposite is true for others, depending on catchment area and level of level of professionalism. For me, intermediate player, it's as follows: who was allowed to bang on a drumkit in his/her parent's basement/garage as a kid? I know of exactly two folks. Every half decent drummer I know is in pretty high demand and is playing in at least three bands. And the somewhat better guys actually earn money with their music by giving lessons, getting paid gigs & occassional studio sessions. But maybe where you live is drummer's land of plenty, while here we're faced with dear rhythmic scarcity. Could be.
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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by 017493816 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:51 am

I live in Austin, so I could see how that might be a possibility.

Still, even learning yourself is better than dealing with a drummer who can't play. Done that before, it's just not worth the effort.

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Re: Drummer can not keep a beat..

Post by julius2790 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:43 pm

Based on what you've written it sounds like he can manage in a live context and that the other players can adjust to his cadence. So if the other players can adjust to him but he can't adjust to the machine it seems like ditching the machine might be a good way to go. Are you able to track everyone live in a way that works for everyone?

One of my best friends is a good guitar player in that he comes up with interesting changes and creative ideas, but he struggles to record to a click. He often needs a lot of takes and it gets frustrating for him if I can cut something a little faster than him. The other night I suggested we sit and record together on this thing we're doing and he was right on the money the first take when he played guitar and I sang. Maybe your drummer is in a similar situation. I know we had a lot more FUN doing it live without a click.

If his fills are out of whack, is he open to suggestions about changing them? Sometimes when I'm recording stuff I'm tempted to move out of the range of my technical ability with guitar or bass, and I always have better results simplifying the part. For me the basic song structure is always leading the way. If you like the material I bet there's a way to bring it together.

Can he do good things with just the kick and the snare? If so, would he be open to ditching some of the other drums? Some of my favorite drummers use kick/snare/hi hat/cymbal and not much else. I don't know what kind of music you're playing but maybe something simpler would work for everyone.

Lately I've been approaching recording stuff as a snapshot of what I actually AM as a musician and letting go of trying to make everything perfect. So...there are a lot of mistakes. But if your goal is ultimately about having fun and he's able to communicate and make changes that work for everyone you could find a way to make something satisfying. Maybe there are some idiosyncrasies in his playing that might actually add to the charm of your recordings. A lot of my favorite musicians are technically crude in certain ways. If you like the guy and he's open to discussion you're in a good position relative to some of the people I've tried to make music with.

Anyway...my two cents. Hopefully you'll find a solution.

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