Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Get that song on tape! Errr... disk?
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Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:39 pm

I think I'm finally to the point where I'm able and want to start recording my stuff (at home, for fun), but I had an idea for a desk/recording station and am not sure about a few things...

1) Considering smaller spaces (apartments, etc.), is it a bad idea to run a recording device (digital, not tape) off the same power strip (or wall outlet) your guitar amp is plugged into? I'm wondering about extra noise, etc.

2) Does close physical proximity between a mic'ed amp and recording device (again, digital) matter (extra noise, etc.)?
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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by señormisterioso » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:49 pm

1) Get some kid of power surge. Something basic like a Furman power conditioner at least.

2) Noise only matters if..it matters to you. But you will capture noise from computer fan, hard drives spinning etc, guaranteed. look into a mic iso ball, Kaotica ball, or the Se Reflection filter. If you don't want to spend the money, figure out to isolated as much as possible your mic from any other noise source. Use foam, or other insulating material. Tons of solutions out there!

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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:20 pm

I've got surge protectors, but I'm just asking if running the amp and recorder off the same one would create any extra noise or other issues?

As for the setup itself, I'm running a Zoom R16 which I don't believe has any fans. The amp(s) are mic'ed with either a Sennheiser E906 or a Shure SM57. I don't think the R16 even has a computer fan, but it's definitely dead quiet. I'm not terribly worried about extra noise from it, but I was wondering if a close proximity would cause any feedback?
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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by señormisterioso » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:11 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:20 pm
I've got surge protectors, but I'm just asking if running the amp and recorder off the same one would create any extra noise or other issues?

As for the setup itself, I'm running a Zoom R16 which I don't believe has any fans. The amp(s) are mic'ed with either a Sennheiser E906 or a Shure SM57. I don't think the R16 even has a computer fan, but it's definitely dead quiet. I'm not terribly worried about extra noise from it, but I was wondering if a close proximity would cause any feedback?
Sounds good I wouldn't worry too much about the noise issue regarding amp and recorder drawing power from the same source.

Regarding feedback. Your mics are dynamic cardioid microphones design to capture what in front of them and avoid anything else. That doesn't mean that feedback can't occur. It's going to depend on how you orient your mic in relationship to your speakers. If you are using just headphones when recording with your Zoom, you shouldn't worry at all.

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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:47 am

Sure, the noise of anything in your environment will bleed into your microphones, cardiod, hyper-cardiod or not. Noise you don't even notice will become immediately apparent in your recordings. For one thing, your room itself has a sound to it. You don't notice it, but your microphone will.

You can create an isolation cabinet type effect in a lot of different ways.

SE Electronics makes what they call Reflexion filters, this one is designed for guitar cabs- you'll get the point pretty immediately.

You can also get some packing blankets and drape that over your microphones as best you can, isolating them from the rest of the room. You can also drape packing blankets over the Reflexion filter, with a little work.

Next step up is probably something like a real isolation cabinet, Jet City makes an inexpensive one. You'll run your amp into the speaker housed in the cabinet, put a mic in front of that speaker, close the cabinet and record from there.

Here's a video on that.

All of these techniques can work and they all have drawbacks to them. I'm not particularly recommending one over any other here, you'd have to do your research yourself on what makes these good and what makes them less than ideal. I'm not saying you can't get a very good and usable sound out of them, but one drawback is they all tend to put a microphone on the speaker very closely and don't easily allow for a second microphone a few feet back, that kind of thing.

They also all work from the idea that you have a terrible recording environment that needs to be neutralized as much as possible, but a more ideal situation would be if you have an actual good sounding room, one that is quiet from interference, doesn't have harsh reflections or standing waves, and so on.
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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by daemon » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:31 am

I don't know if the R16 will allow this (I'm not sure why it wouldn't), but I've had great success just running my guitar through pedals and right into my Tascam.

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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by Maggieo » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:07 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:47 am

You can also get some packing blankets and drape that over your microphones as best you can, isolating them from the rest of the room. You can also drape packing blankets over the Reflexion filter, with a little work.
When I worked in radio news we'd do on-site interviews in a little "V" of packing blankets draped or hung where we could. We got near-studio sound out of that simple rig.
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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:30 am

Yeah, it can work. I've made vocal booths with my Reflexion filter, and packing blankets hanging from the ceiling in a rectangle, and then put on some artificial reverb.

If you don't have a good sounding space, get rid of the space.
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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by señormisterioso » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:32 pm

Yeah!
And if everything fails...

https://reverb.com/item/20527701-line-6-pod-2-0

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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by marqueemoon » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:47 pm

Boom stands set horizontal with folded packing blankets draped over them make ok gobos.

With the noise questions the only way to know is to try it. If it’s noisy try something else.

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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:11 am

señormisterioso wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:11 am
Sounds good I wouldn't worry too much about the noise issue regarding amp and recorder drawing power from the same source.

Regarding feedback. Your mics are dynamic cardioid microphones design to capture what in front of them and avoid anything else. That doesn't mean that feedback can't occur. It's going to depend on how you orient your mic in relationship to your speakers. If you are using just headphones when recording with your Zoom, you shouldn't worry at all.
Awesome. I know that feedback is possible, just wanting to make sure it isn't an inevitable fact just based on physical proximity of devices. Definitely won't be using monitoring speakers. I've got a set of recording headphones for that type of stuff. Thanks dude!

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:47 am
They also all work from the idea that you have a terrible recording environment that needs to be neutralized as much as possible, but a more ideal situation would be if you have an actual good sounding room, one that is quiet from interference, doesn't have harsh reflections or standing waves, and so on.
That SE reflexion panel made for guitar micing is really cool! I might pick one of those up. I've got a few mic stands and tons of moving blankets (as well as regular blankets too), so I could probably isolate a whole corner of the room for recording purposes. I don't see grabbing an isolation cab just because it takes up a fair bit of space. I like the reflexion panel because it's small. I have no plans to, but I'll likely be moving in a year or two.

I haven't done much recording in the apartment, so I don't know just yet, but as I'm stuck with an apartment for the time being, I'll likely have to find a way to make do. I like the idea of a dedicated space, and that's what I'm using my second bedroom for at the moment.

daemon wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:31 am
I don't know if the R16 will allow this (I'm not sure why it wouldn't), but I've had great success just running my guitar through pedals and right into my Tascam.
I haven't done it either, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a problem. On that note, I've got a Tech 21 Q\Strip for the bass board which I could use there, if the mic'ing sounds like shit. Good suggestion! Totally forgot about that :fp:

Maggieo wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:07 am
When I worked in radio news we'd do on-site interviews in a little "V" of packing blankets draped or hung where we could. We got near-studio sound out of that simple rig.
That is an awesome trick Maggie! You made the "V" shape with the center point farther from the amp/noise source?

señormisterioso wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:32 pm
Yeah!
And if everything fails...

https://reverb.com/item/20527701-line-6-pod-2-0
Had one. Wasn't a huge fan of the sounds from it. I'd rather deal with an ok recording of an amp, than digital processing. I know digital processing has come a long way in 15-20 years, but it's not my thing.

marqueemoon wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:47 pm
Boom stands set horizontal with folded packing blankets draped over them make ok gobos.

With the noise questions the only way to know is to try it. If it’s noisy try something else.
Agreed. My next few weekends will be crazy busy, but I'm dying to try a little recording for the hell of it, to try out the room sounds if nothing else...


All of this stemmed from an idea I had for a small space. Here's my amp corner at the moment:
Image

My idea was to build a sort of floating desk (wood legs and a top) that would go around and over the amps, so I could have my mixing board and recorder above them (and also shield the amps from the window just in case). I haven't figured out where my bass amp and pedal board are going, but will likely be making a little combo stand like my guitar amps for that, and probably put it farther off to the right (where it wouldn't be visible from this angle).
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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by Embenny » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:47 am

If you're recording a lot of electric guitar (and it sounds like you are), then you owe it to yourself to have a decent DI and reamp box (essentially a reverse-DI).

Recording DI and reamping are incredibly powerful tools, and allow you to be objective. Even without investing huge amounts of money into something like the software edition of Helix, and instead relying on free/sub-$100 amp emulator plugins, it will be incredibly informative for you to be able to flip back and forth between your recorded amp tones and emulated ones.

As others have mentioned, room sound and isolation are some of the biggest challenges you will face, and quite frankly, when I was recording in my untreated apartment, I could never get nearly as usable a tone from my real tube amps as I could from even the built-in emulator in Logic.

Ambient noise, early reflections, comb filtering - there were so many issues I discovered trying to record in a small, minimally-treated space that it was a revelation to find that I could get something better sounding faster with software. It was the beginning of my conversion to digital (which took maybe 15 years from my first plug-in experiences until the Kemper and Fractal hardware was at a point I felt comfortable switching to for live use).

There's tons to be learned by experimenting with live amp recording in your existing space, and I encourage that. But get a DI and reamp box, and you can just flip a track back and forth between emulation and your real amp. Doing so, for me, revealed TONS of unflattering problems with my amp recording. Some were fixable (amp position in room, mic position on speaker, settings on amp, attempts at treating early reflections) and some were not (comb filtering from standing waves in a small untreated room, my mic budget limiting my choices, imperfect isolation).
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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by Maggieo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:04 am

That is an awesome trick Maggie! You made the "V" shape with the center point farther from the amp/noise source?
Yep!
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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:46 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:47 am
If you're recording a lot of electric guitar (and it sounds like you are), then you owe it to yourself to have a decent DI and reamp box (essentially a reverse-DI).

Recording DI and reamping are incredibly powerful tools, and allow you to be objective. Even without investing huge amounts of money into something like the software edition of Helix, and instead relying on free/sub-$100 amp emulator plugins, it will be incredibly informative for you to be able to flip back and forth between your recorded amp tones and emulated ones.

As others have mentioned, room sound and isolation are some of the biggest challenges you will face, and quite frankly, when I was recording in my untreated apartment, I could never get nearly as usable a tone from my real tube amps as I could from even the built-in emulator in Logic.

Ambient noise, early reflections, comb filtering - there were so many issues I discovered trying to record in a small, minimally-treated space that it was a revelation to find that I could get something better sounding faster with software. It was the beginning of my conversion to digital (which took maybe 15 years from my first plug-in experiences until the Kemper and Fractal hardware was at a point I felt comfortable switching to for live use).

There's tons to be learned by experimenting with live amp recording in your existing space, and I encourage that. But get a DI and reamp box, and you can just flip a track back and forth between emulation and your real amp. Doing so, for me, revealed TONS of unflattering problems with my amp recording. Some were fixable (amp position in room, mic position on speaker, settings on amp, attempts at treating early reflections) and some were not (comb filtering from standing waves in a small untreated room, my mic budget limiting my choices, imperfect isolation).
I've been planning on getting a re-amp box for sure. I believe the Q\Strip has a standard 1/4" output, a completely unaffected parallel 1/4" output, and an XLR output. Even if using it unaffected, I plan on recording 2 separate tracks for the guitar and bass, whether micing the amp or going straight to console, so that way I'll have identical guitar tracks in case I want to re-amp later.

Maggieo wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:04 am
That is an awesome trick Maggie! You made the "V" shape with the center point farther from the amp/noise source?
Yep!
Awesome! I'll have to try that!!
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Re: Recording Tips, Tricks, And Maybe Lesser Known Information

Post by timtam » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:32 am

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:39 pm
1) Considering smaller spaces (apartments, etc.), is it a bad idea to run a recording device (digital, not tape) off the same power strip (or wall outlet) your guitar amp is plugged into? I'm wondering about extra noise, etc.
Running gear into more than one power outlet is actually the classic way to create the pre-conditions for a hum-producing ground loop. So if your amp is plugged into one outlet and your pedal board or mixer etc into another, their different ground points may be at slightly different ground potentials (ie not exactly 0 volts), which would create a potential difference between those points. When you connect the output of your pedal board / mixer to your amp, the ground line in that connection completes the loop that also runs between the ground points in the wall, which is then a circuit for current to flow between the different ground potentials in the ground wires, which is what is heard as hum.

So you are actually usually better off going into one outlet ... at least as far as ground loop hum is concerned.
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