Re: SRV

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Re: SRV

Post by idiotbear » Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:18 pm

+1

Music first; guitar obsession second.

Haledixon, to answer some of your points:

Yes, I've only heard one complete song by SRV. It was horrible (IMO). I've heard lots of snatches/clips since then, seen video etc. I still think he sucks, because for me, that kind of playing doesn't serve any musical purpose other than "Hey, check me out! Aren't I just the darndest thing?"

And anyway, I doubt you'd have a problem with me dismissing, say, Christina Aguilera's complete oeuvre on the basis of one of her songs. I don't like SRV's style, and I can easily tell that from hearing very little of his playing. To me it sounds like music, only without the music.

Finally, I explained already why I think we those of us who hate that kind of music can be forgiven our "vitriolence". Our music gets dismissed out of hand by SRV fans and their like ALL THE TIME. All the time. So occasionally we sin right back. Understandable, I think.

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Re: SRV

Post by zhivago » Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:24 pm

I don't really like the really fast solo-ing stuff SRV did, but I gotta hand to him that version he did of a song called "Pride & Joy"

I think it was for MTV Unplugged...it's just him and an acoustic 12-string...very cool and soulful :)


I think it's cool that everyone listens to different stuff on this forum....here's to diversity!

one of my all-time faves is Sonic Youth, by the way :)

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Re: SRV

Post by zhivago » Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:26 pm

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Re: SRV

Post by haledixon » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:08 pm

So, let me get this straight: you're not assuming everyone likes them just because they use offsets, but you are assuming everyone likes them because they use offsets. Sounds logical.

no, sorry, you don't have it straight. i picked those 3 because off the top of my head those are a few names that seem to be batted around more often than others in offset circles. that being said, what i was saying was not to be limited to those few.

and why are you judging musicians purely on technical ability?

my PERSONAL opinion, which is all we got here, is that technical ability is incredibly important to one's musicianmanship. that's not to say it's the only factor i'd consider, not by a long shot, it's just what i'd consider the most important. without a great level of techinical proficiency, you're always going to be limited in what you can do. i'm sure it's easy to justify not having great technical ability - you just tell yourself wtf, dylan knew 4 chords and it worked for him. let me crank the amp and bash some chords and yeah, it feels good. sure, but are we talking about artistry or musicianmanship? you can suck as a musician and craft some amazing songs like cobain or moore or dylan. most of my favorite songwriters aren't much of musicians. take their guitar playing out of context and it's awful, hear it in the context of their song and it all seems brilliant.

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Re: SRV

Post by fullerplast » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:15 pm

I still think he sucks
Rob, I can understand you not liking SRV, or not liking his style. No problem whatsoever with that. But to say "he sucks" seems way strong and over the top. The guy had talent, whether one likes his music or not. There's lots of musicians/actors/athletes/etc. that I don't like... or can't stand the sight of. But I can't deny they have talent.

If you mean his music sucks... to each his own and that's cool. But I have to disagree he sucked as a guitarist. And I'm no HUGE fan of his, BTW. I have to say I'm mystified over the "hero/deity" status as well.


Maybe I'm splitting hairs over semantics.
it's on youtube:
EGAD! I like the plugged version better. The playings great, but the studio was much kinder to his vocals...
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Re: SRV

Post by zhivago » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:22 pm

fullerplast wrote:
it's on youtube:
EGAD! I like the plugged version better. The playings great, but the studio was much kinder to his vocals...
hehe...I also found a lesson from this other guy on youtube...shows how to play it...might just attempt it one of these days :)
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Re: SRV

Post by Maggieo » Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:30 pm

haledixon wrote: take their guitar playing out of context and it's awful, hear it in the context of their song and it all seems brilliant.
Well, that's a bit of a strawman- music is, if nothing else, all about context.  Call it "taste" or "composition," but it's all about how everything works together.

The biggest flaw of most shredders is they have no sense of context or musicality- it's just athletics and music is not athletics. It's art.
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Re: SRV

Post by sookwinder » Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:01 pm

I've been alseep while all this has happened .... but I'll add my 5 cents worth .... I sense it may be a bit long winded ...

Like most aussies of english desent, I speak one language - english,     I can barely hold a conversation with a chinese market stall owner because by cantonese is so bad.....  most europeans can speak more than one language

One language we all speak is that of music.  It is a form of communication that transcents borders or language differences.  To a lesser or greater degree the "quality" of the music is often no impediment to others to understand it.

music is a form of communication, a form of self expression.

If you do not enjoy or appreciate a genre of music (or a musician within that genre) it may well be more your issue rather than an issue with the genre or the player.  There are a number of genres and players that I dislike  (almost hate) but there is certainly an audience out there who seem to enjoy and understand what those musicians are playing.

I have half a dozen hendrix LPs, never really got into him as much as others did, I own SRV's first album (Texas Flood) and the jazz fgestival recording he did at montreaux.  I think they are great ...  why ?  not for his singing  (I do not enjoy his singing in the same way I do not enjoy hendrix's singing)  but for the instrumentals he wrote/played, especially the slow instrumentals (and  not necessarily the 12 bar ones)

With tracks like "Lenny" I can listen and hear exactly what he is thinking from a personal point of view, nothing to do with what chords he is playing or whether it's texas rock or what ever, it transcends the style the format the genre.  He wrote that tune for his wife and it is like reading someones love letter when you hear it.

OTOH, when I listen to SRV's versions of Hendrix's tunes, they just leave me cold, I don't "hear" what SRV is trying to say to me, all I hear is someone doing a cover of a Hendrix tune.  nothing new to say, no variation.

I don't even enjoy SRVs texas rock style... prefer Skynyrd, ABB, ARS, Little Feat.

And I have to definately take issue with the "12 bar blues is totally crap" statements.  Why do a lot of people say this ?  Well, IMO it is because playing an original 12 bar is not an easy thing to do.  Yeah it's easy to learn the three chords, easy to throw in some "I woke up this morning..." lyrics, throw in the obligatory guitar or harp solo, but those 12 bar songs that really move people, really communicate something are few and far between.  It is fucking difficult (mods don't ban me for saying the F word) to play such a simple music style, with its 3 chord limitation and still make it your own, make it something that the listener immediately knows what you are trying to tell them.

Hey I have seen my fare share of crappy blues bands over the years who have done absolujtely nothing for me.  But many of the "alterante" guitar heros discussed in the very forum do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for me as well.  I listen to them, listen again and again but I just cannot "hear" what they are trying to communicate via "the alternate" genre of music.  Is it their problem or my problem that I do not understand what they are playing.  I would suspect it is my problem.   

I always hear Radiohead fans saying "listen to the disillusionment in the chords, in the music"  .. I reply with WTF, why do I need to listen to some bands disillusionment, especially when every fucking track is about disillusionment !! 

[yeah I know radiohead is more pop these days, but I have used them as just an example rather than as  the quintessential "alternatve band", so don't flame  me on that point]

Even though the above rant doesn't show it, I do have en eclectic taste in music and have about 10k CDs.  If I had to choose but one CD for the dessert island, it would not be a beatle CD (even though I am a beatle freak) and none of the classic albums (rock or alternate), it would not be any of the late 70s , early 80s brit power pop or even any of my coltrane, jimmy smith or davis jazz albums. It would be the 1979 slef titled solo album by Mick Taylor.  [ex Blues Breakers, ex Rolling Stones]  Why...  because even though it is almost a jazz rock album, everytrack on that album communicate something to me, it kept me going through some dark/low point in my life back in 1985/86, every note I hear, every chord, every word tells me something. For me it is THE album.

My grandfather was in the british army from 1926 - 1938 and the only music he ever listened to was 3 LPs of british marching band music.  This was the only music he understood.

Yeah SRV is not my cup of tea (as a general statement) but when I hear some of his slower numbers, I can get a sense of what the inner man was. which is all that a musician strives for... to be able to communicate with their music
Last edited by sookwinder on Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SRV

Post by idiotbear » Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:30 am

fullerplast wrote: If you mean his music sucks... to each his own and that's cool.
Yeah, Doug, that is what I meant - I guess in my social circle, the IMO is implicit, and when we say a band or artist sucks, we mean that we dislike their music. Technique, to me, is almost irrelevant - it's what you do with it. Like Maggie says, music isn't athletics, and when I talk about the merits or otherwise of an artist, I'm talking about their music, not their technique.

If someone listening to my music says I suck as a guitarist, sure, it's going to piss me off (because the criticism is rude, not because it's necessarily inaccurate), but at the same time, once I've got over being pissed off at my critic's rudeness, I can shrug it off and say fuck it - technique isn't what my songs are about.

Haledixon - fair enough: technique's really important to your appreciation of an artist's music. It's really, really not important to mine. Which is, I guess, not something we're ever going to agree on. Where I got a little riled was your "you guys can't talk", which seemed rude to me. Never mind.

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Re: SRV

Post by mezcalhead » Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:45 am

idiotbear wrote: Where I got a little riled was your "you guys can't talk"
I think you can have an opinion on someone's music even if you couldn't play/write/whatever as "well" as they can.

For example, I can't sing that well. Most opera I hate .. some of it, I like. Should I really be blindly accepting all opera as good stuff, just because I can't sing like Bryn Teufel? Should I give equal respect to John Coltrane and Kenny G because I can't play sax?

As a musician, your audience is not only other musicians of varying ability but mostly non-musicians. To say I can't dislike SRV because I can't play as well as him is completely spurious (and FWIW although he's nowhere near being my favourite musician, I do like some of his work as I've said).
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Re: SRV

Post by idiotbear » Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:51 am

Mez, you put my view much better than I did or could. Bastard! ;)

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Re: SRV

Post by fullerplast » Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:14 am

Yeah, Doug, that is what I meant - I guess in my social circle, the IMO is implicit, and when we say a band or artist sucks, we mean that we dislike their music.
Fair enough. I wasn't riled, just curious on your take. When I say someone sucks (in context to their performance),  I mean they are not good at what they do.
Where I got a little riled was your "you guys can't talk", which seemed rude to me.
I took that as rude too, as in "you are not a good player" as opposed to "I don't like what you play".  But that's the same way I interpreted the "SRV sucks" statement.

OTOH, I thought the puking jokes were funny.

You have to admit either way, SRV's left quite a legacy. I doubt if anyone will be discussing me on this board 10+ years after I'm dead and gone?
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Re: SRV

Post by idiotbear » Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:26 am

Oh, for sure. A lot of people like him. And I didn't think you were riled, Doug.

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Re: SRV

Post by haledixon » Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:56 pm

Where I got a little riled was your "you guys can't talk", which seemed rude to me.
I guess in my social circle, the IMO is implicit, and when we say a band or artist sucks, we mean that we dislike their music.
so, if YOU say someone sucks, then you just mean that you just "dislike their music" but if someone tells you YOU suck, you take it personally?

if you say someone sucks, you're saying that they're not good at what they do. if you think otherwise about that, then you should say what you mean instead of expecting people to infer something completely different from what you say. this is truer on messageboard/forums than almost anywhere because we dont have body language or tone of voice, all we have are words.

i wasn't saying anyone here sucked, if thats what i'd meant, that's what i would have said. iwas saying that from i've heard thus far it wouldn't seem like anyone's in a position to make the kind of judgements that were being made only i said it in a way that was kind of assholish because you all were kind of showing your asses. doesn't it suck to be judged the same way you judge others?

i dont think you have to be a virtuoso to decide whether or not you like some music. if you dont like opera, that's cool... but do you think you're actually qualified to say (insert famous opera singer's name) sucks just because you don't like opera? if you're going to judge someone's talent then you ought to have the skills to at least be able to make that judgement (american idol excluded). it has nothing to do with liking someone.

but then again this is the internet. i guess you don't really need to be qualified for anything to say whoever sucks. everyone's an expert.
fair enough: technique's really important to your appreciation of an artist's music.
dude, you still don't get it. it's not technique. everybody has technique. i'm talking about technical proficiency, i.e., technical ability. and no, it's not necessary for me to appreciate an artist's music. i JUST said that my favorite songwriters were people who basically sucked as musicians or who didn't even play instruments. i said that i thought technical proficiency was important part of musicianmanship, not appreciation and that without it you're always going to be limited. the first part of that last statement is my opinion, but the limiting factor is definitely not.

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Re: SRV

Post by Jay » Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:57 pm

if you're going to judge someone's talent then you ought to have the skills to at least be able to make that judgment (American idol excluded). it has nothing to do with liking someone.
I completely disagree, in fact most critical writing of any form is done by those with no qualifications whatsoever in the genre in which they are criticizing.  I can't think of any successful directors, artists, or musicians that spend their time critiquing the work of others.

When I was in a college music class I was forced to attend a symphony and write a paper about it.  There were three pieces of music, one of which was a wonderful but very quiet Debussy piece that was generally drowned out by old ladies shuffling through their purses and old men coughing.  The premier piece was some famous piece of music designed (IMO) solely to show off the number of notes a virtuoso piano player could perform in 15 minutes.  So I wrote it in my paper what I felt about the experience.  I thought I was very fair and honest.  I got lambasted by the teacher and he tried to fail me.  It was only after I proved to the dean I met all the requirements and passed all the tests easily he was forced to give me a C.

I liked Sook's and Maggies post.  I still find 12 bar blues rather boring but that's just me. 

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