Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

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Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by windmill » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:50 pm

So I have been to a few shows lately, at regular live music venues that hold a few hundred people, and instead of hearing an amplified bass drum sound there is instead a low frequency pulse that is able to be felt as well as heard.

Why I don't like it

1. It is an unpleasant feeling

2. It "swamps" the bass guitar due to it being in the same sonic (or frequency) space. The bass player may as well not be there. ( this is annoying for songs where the bass line is a key melodic component)

How is this done
Is it because the bass drum is triggering a low frequency sample ?
Is it being mixed too loudly in the front of house sound ? ( Does the band have a different mix in their monitors and doesn't actually hear this "pulse')

Then
Is this common ?
Why don't people want to hear the bass drum ?

Do you like this sound ?

Enquiring minds would like to know

Thanks

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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by marqueemoon » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:51 pm

One of my pet peeves of live sound is the kick drum that eats everything.

As a drummer they will often try to pump that into your monitor too.

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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by StevenO » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:54 pm

This is because most "sound guys" have no idea what the hell they are doing. That along with most venues being horrifically ill-prepared for live, loud music... Well, you get the picture.

My favourite venues are where they're just small enough that only the vocals are put in the PA system and everything else is set by the musicians. Well... Musicians who know how to create a good band mix themselves.

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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by oid » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:11 pm

This can also be caused by a band unwilling to trust who ever is running sound and are not used to live playing with a full PA, they may have spent a half hour yelling at the board op about to much highs on the kick.

Some rooms also just do funny things, I tend to wander about the venue until I find that sweet spot where things sound good. If the only place in the venue were the mix sounds right is back by the board, then it most likely is an issue with an incapable sound guy, or at least one who does not know the room or know well enough to see how it sounds down where audience is.

The worst are the ones who can not stop fiddling with a mix during the show. Small tweak here and there is one thing, but constant large changes throughout a set, right in the middle of songs, drives me nuts.
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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by Plumerai » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:25 pm

I feel like a lot of sound guys want that booming hip hop/techno bass tone regardless of music type. Or maybe it's how the venue has the eq set up if they also do dj nights & the sound guys don't bother messing with it.

For big metal shows the trend seems to be the kick should be felt more than heard. Not sure how that worked when clicky kicks were trendy.

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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by InLimbo » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:06 am

Most people like that, though I don't. It's like have insane subs in a car that make all the panels vibrate, or those Beats headphones with bass boost. More bass = better, automatically, to a lot of people. It's quite annoying.

Venues tend to also have the PA so absurdly loud, combined with that kick drum that all you hear is a wash of static and the feeling that someone is kicking you in the chest.

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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by Whiny Minotaur » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:29 am

I'm guilty for doing this shit while recording my own music. My rationale at the time was that I wanted to get that huge chess rumbling bass that you get when you go to a club. I just love the physical response you get from strong bass. Unfortunately I also didn't quite understand that trying to get that feeling in lower volumes just makes your music sound like a muddy mess :fp:
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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by Embenny » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:34 am

Whiny Minotaur wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:29 am
I'm guilty for doing this shit while recording my own music. My rationale at the time was that I wanted to get that huge chess rumbling bass that you get when you go to a club. I just love the physical response you get from strong bass. Unfortunately I also didn't quite understand that trying to get that feeling in lower volumes just makes your music sound like a muddy mess :fp:
You are likely falling victim to the Fletcher-Munson curve. That's also why the tone you dial in on an amp at bedroom volume often sounds like shit in a band mix at rehearsal/performance volumes, and vice-versa.
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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:58 am

Truth is, the kick drum isn't all that low, and it's booming quality and all the overtones makes it a little hard to seat in the mix.

Electronic music can get away with having lower kick drum sounds since there is room for more control over the other elements of the music.

A rock and roll combo can have a lot of overlapping frequencies. Trying to drive the kick drum to lower frequency levels can lead to a big mess, no doubt.
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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by Singlebladepickup » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:08 am

mbene085 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:34 am
You are likely falling victim to the Fletcher-Munson curve. That's also why the tone you dial in on an amp at bedroom volume often sounds like shit in a band mix at rehearsal/performance volumes, and vice-versa.
Interesting, I've noticed this effect but never knew it had a name. I don't agree with the author's whole FULL VOLUME = FULL ATTENTION thing, or at least it doesn't apply to me. I listen full volume when I'm paying the least attention (using lawnmower), and full volume on my car stereo would sound like complete shit. When I'm paying attention, it's at reasonable volume and I don't want to have to turn it up full blast to appreciate everything in the mix.

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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by Embenny » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:47 am

Singlebladepickup wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:08 am
mbene085 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:34 am
You are likely falling victim to the Fletcher-Munson curve. That's also why the tone you dial in on an amp at bedroom volume often sounds like shit in a band mix at rehearsal/performance volumes, and vice-versa.
Interesting, I've noticed this effect but never knew it had a name. I don't agree with the author's whole FULL VOLUME = FULL ATTENTION thing, or at least it doesn't apply to me. I listen full volume when I'm paying the least attention (using lawnmower), and full volume on my car stereo would sound like complete shit. When I'm paying attention, it's at reasonable volume and I don't want to have to turn it up full blast to appreciate everything in the mix.
That's the thing though; a proper mix translates well to different volume levels as well as different speakers, though you can absolutely tell the difference the Fletcher-Munson curve creates. That's why old stereos had that "loudness" button; it was essentially an EQ curve meant to bring up the frequencies that get de-emphasized at low volumes.

It's more of an issue with inexperienced/amateur audio engineers who only mix at one volume level and on one set of speakers, and for guitarists setting up their tone on an amp.
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Re: Why is it so: What have they done to the bass drum ?

Post by 46346 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:10 am

house engineers may often find a 'sweet spot' where the kick just resonates and blooms out a resonant tone in the room. it can be a cool sound if you identify that pitch, and can write a whole song around it. but when the songs are already written in a certain key, it is left to chance whether that key is coherent with the room resonance of a given performance space.

if an engineer is keen enough to minimize that resonance rather than exploit it, that may yield more transparent and coherent results.
but it sure can be fun to just exploit it for a sensation. and that's where everything else about an act's sound can fall apart.


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