Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

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finboy
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Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by finboy » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:27 pm

Canada has archaic data plans, some of the worst in the world. I finally got a good plan, and am trying out spotify and Apple Music. I have always been an iTunes user, loved that it logged all my data, top played, etc. And especially liked genius mixes to get good playlists out of the tens of thousands of songs I have out together over the last decade plus.

What I am finding frustrating in the world of streaming, is that I would have to completely rebuild my library in Spotify, and Apple seems to have ignored all the data and preferences they have been logging with users for years. It looks like the core idea of streaming today is based on music discovery (Spotify has weekly playlists, and Apple has “for you” playlists to discover music), which I really want no part of.

My take is that some people view music like a book they read once, and move on, so streaming services work like a literal library for them. I prefer to have my own backlog of music, listening to it reoeatedly, finding out what sub genres work together, understanding what makes the songs work, revisiting the same albums/songs/sub genres frequently.

From what I can put together, it doesn’t seem like either Spotify or Apple Music will do what I am looking for, leveraging curation algorithms to use my existing catalogue to mix up the music I have decided to put together. Am I missing something, or is this an accurate picture of where these apps are at today?

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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by Unicorn Warrior » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:32 pm

I really like pandora myself. Just type in "Mazzy Star" for example, and it will begin playing a lot of their music and music like it. The songs will all cycle through and you will begin to get familiar with them. It's how I've done music for the last 4 years or so while doing documentation at my job. I never bought the premium version.

It has its limitations. Recently I've wanted to change it and just start gambling with it like the old days and buy random vinyls.

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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by spacecadet » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:39 pm

Well you've hit on the dirty little secret of streaming, I think. First, I think it moreso takes the place of radio than it does of listening to your own library. I think that's its main function.

But also, I do think it's more younger people that are into streaming, specifically because it's so geared to discovery. I read a lot of tech sites and all anybody ever talks about when they talk about streaming is all the new stuff they've found that way and/or which service has the most popular current artists. I'm old, I already know a lot of bands, I don't need a lot of discovery or new pop music. My big music discoveries these days come from talking to people I trust who have similar tastes as me. What I need from a music service is for my stuff that I know I like to be available for me to listen to whenever I want. That's not what streaming services are really geared towards.

I do use Pandora sometimes, but it's kind of like a low-rent commercial radio.

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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by countertext » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:48 pm

spacecadet wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:39 pm
I do use Pandora sometimes, but it's kind of like a low-rent commercial radio.
This. When I’ve used streaming services, they were all the things I disliked about commercial radio. I don’t bother with them now.

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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by Futuron » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:22 pm

It's internet radio. Better than 20th Century radio since you can change the channel & song to something you like, but not a replacement for good-ol' "I know what I like and want to listen to what I've already got - don't push your ads or manufactured music onto me" manual music listening/organising. I'm still using CDs, or MP3s in manual playlists in media players like Winamp. I've got 100s of discs I rarely get to listen to already, why would I want to search for anything new? ;D I'm not 18 anymore

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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by Embenny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:03 pm

I disagree with some of what has been said.

I used to think exactly what was expressed above - that it was good for discovery, as a replacement for radio, etc, because I was using the wrong service.

My car came with Slacker installed, which is useful as internet radio, mostly. I used that for a couple of years. Then my wife finally convinced me to switch to Spotify.

This has been a total game changer. I can build a library not just of saved music, but of downloaded albums (as opposed to just playlists). All the radio-like/discovery aspects are there if you want them, but I'm building a library of personal playlists and downloaded music, much like my "traditionally-downloaded" digital music.

It truly delivers both experiences, most of the time. There's some obscure stuff of course that I have to use regular mp3s/flacs/etc for, but I'm increasingly relying on Spotify.

It has shown me that "streaming" really isn't a catch-all phrase. It includes limited-function services like Slacker and Pandora, and more fully-features ones like Spotify (and although I haven't used them personally, I assume google play and Apple Music are similar).
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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by shadowplay » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:20 am

I've literally no interest in it, in algorithm sourced selections or in internet radio or cars fitted with it. It's really bad for the sustainability of acts on the lower slopes of music. I'm sure these bands would rather you bought their records or the digital from Bandcamp and gave Spotify the finger.

I've no inclination to have some bot push music at me, I've never needed it and always found music on my own.

I'll tolerate iTunes because the family like to share playlists and because Mrs S forces me to playlist when folk come round to stop me spending the whole night pulling records (and to lock off folk requesting) but I don't really use it in my own and I disable all that genius shite, play counts, ratings and all that rhubarb and only buy digital from Apple when there is literally no other choice.

I don't really get the whole concept of streaming, it seems so unsatisfying, so devoid of soul and interaction* and as someone who spends weekends and holidays in a rural area with no mobile signal it seems doubly daft. I found CDs an appalling shit thing and this is even worse and it denies you the ability to go round someone's house and totally judge them by their record or CD collection. :D

I'm also old like some of the posters above but I still buy pretty much a record a day and have done to some extent or another for over 40 years and probably more and I doubt I'll ever change. I'm also fundamentally a buyer and not a renter be that music, houses or cars.

You know even worse that that is how streaming and digital has enabled people to bring their music with them everywhere. This is one of the reasons I avoid working in house like I avoid shitting my own pants, the horrific ability of people with no interest whatsoever in music to subject it to everyone.

This is particularly acute when someone dies, in the past they'd not actually have any of their music because they didn't give a shit about them until their death was pushed as 'news' and probably didn't even like what they heard without the reaper content but with streaming you can't fucking escape it and it's there at their cloth eared fingertips instantly.

.I dread all the big rock grandess dying for the exact opposite reason to most folk, in the past I would have been glad of less of them but these days they release more and are heard more after death and even their shit becomes gold.

D

*without record shops I'd probably be short half my lifelong friends.
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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by NickD » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:57 am

Never tried music streaming, can't see I'm likely to. I want to own the music I buy.

I mainly listen on record, on CD or iPhone repurposed as iPod in the car and use a computer to store the stuff that won't fit on the phone. But mostly its on record.

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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by shadowplay » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:05 am

I also think it threatens the album and even ep's or 12 inches as a concept. I guess those ships have long sailed for most people but the more folk slip to streaming the more slender these vital niches get. I also think that people need to lose the idea that everything is on these platforms, it's not and if all you know is streaming you lose out on a lot of music.

A lot of folk think the best thing about the internet (porn aside) is the access to 'free' ;) music or really cheap subscription music but for me the best thing is how individuals can get out records in tiny numbers, market them so they all sell and make a small profit. I'm regularly buying 50 only runs and sometimes even lower and 300 only runs are really routine and for me it's been a joy dealing with people directly. I did this pre internet but there was a hell of lot more hassle when it was buying from lists and ads in music mags and dealing with all sorts of nonsense like postal orders. There's no real fun, interaction or discovery on Spotify, at least for me.

I also feel that web connectivity and by extension streaming is something of a hook to ugly and uninvolving product in the auto industry, where cars are just plastic bags to carry your shit in and nothing more. I died inside a thousand times when I saw this collaboration between Maserati, Samsung and Harmon. :'( :k

D
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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by sears » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:06 am

finboy wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:27 pm
My take is that some people view music like a book they read once, and move on, so streaming services work like a literal library for them. I prefer to have my own backlog of music, listening to it reoeatedly, finding out what sub genres work together, understanding what makes the songs work, revisiting the same albums/songs/sub genres frequently.
lol my take was always that streaming services were a great way to hear new artists that are sort of like artists you already like but a poor way to hear something new. They must be doing something right if everybody sees it differently!
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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by spacecadet » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:16 am

sears wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:06 am
lol my take was always that streaming services were a great way to hear new artists that are sort of like artists you already like but a poor way to hear something new. They must be doing something right if everybody sees it differently!
Well, depending on your viewpoint that's potentially a distinction without a difference. New artists sort of like artists you know are something new if you haven't heard them before.

I'd actually be mostly ok with that (I mean this is what commercial radio does, and how new bands got popular in the old days), but the problem I have is that the algorithms on every streaming service I've tried are just *so* narrow that they only ever play stuff I've heard a million times. I realize this sounds exactly the opposite of what I said my problem was before. But what I meant was I don't need to hear the latest pop song or some thing that's totally different from what I know I already like. But I'd be ok with hearing new stuff that really does sound like other stuff I like, and that I haven't heard before.

I just never get that. It's either something I'm just outright not interested in, or something I've heard so many times I've worn it out. Like really obvious stuff. If you like Radiohead, then you might like... Smashing Pumpkins! Umm, ok. Yeah, how did you ever find this awesome obscure band nobody's ever heard of??

I don't know of a service that's gonna say if you like Radiohead, you might like... Fazerdaze. I mean I had to find her through someone on this site. And I think that's because of how these algorithms work; the more people who like two (or more) different artists, the greater the connection the algorithm's going to see between them.

I've really yet to find an algorithm in anything that's good at recommending me stuff. Be it Amazon, Netflix, Pandora, or whatever... and part of that may be just that I'm already familiar with more of what they have than the average person, but I think the algorithms themselves just still aren't very good at coming up with recommendations that aren't patently obvious. You could pretty much just take any genre, take the top 10 best selling artists in that genre and boom, same recommendations most algorithms would come up with.

I remember reading a month or so ago about this high-priced music consultant who does stuff like movie soundtracks and things like that for a living who's set up a service where she personally picks 10 songs out for you that she thinks you'll like and that you haven't heard, for some ridiculous sum of money (I think it was a couple hundred bucks). But I actually thought that might not be a bad idea. A really good band can be something that's with you for life, and really gives you a lot of happiness. And she's got this huge breadth of knowledge, and she then does all this personalized research and puts a lot of thought into each individual song. I have a feeling that couple hundred bucks is probably money better spent than the $9 per month or whatever for most streaming services, for someone who's older and already knows all the obvious stuff.

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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by Flurko » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:27 am

I quite enjoy the limited use I have of Spotify, I've gone back and forth quite a lot about paying for it or no, as a good adblocker allows you to use the web player for free without annoying ads, and with all the recommendation features.
I started by involuntarily"training" the recommendation algorithm by listening to playlists made by The Quietus and other music journalists/curators I like, and now I'm always finding a few gems in my weekly recommendations playlist.
I don't think I'll spare the money to actually pay for the thing still, given how few of it goes to the artist, and I go to quite a lot of gigs, and buy records already.

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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by Singlebladepickup » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:47 am

Spotify is crucial to my sanity.

I commute 3-4 hours a day; more if I have something that needs to be delivered. I listen to whole albums, mostly of stuff that I don't own. I listen to an album 5 times or more before I eventually decide to buy it. I can't afford to randomly buy albums that end up sucking. I wouldn't have the space to store them either.

Spotify is decent enough for skipping from a band I like to a similar band I might not know. It's also great for exploring the catalogs of bands I know I like, but don't have all their albums. I also like that you can download lots of stuff to listen to offline, which saves me lots of data when I have the foresight to stock up before I hit the road.

It's $15 a month for me and my wife to have separate accounts. I still prefer owning music on vinyl, but I would honestly have less records if I hadn't gotten the chance to listen to them first on Spotify. Pandora isn't for me, because I'm not a "shuffle" kind of guy.

It doesn't have to replace listening to or owning records, it's just better and more convenient for on the go than carrying a discman or a giant CD wallet in my car.

EDIT: Case in point, I just bought The Gentleman Losers - Permanently Midnight vinyl, which I've listened to a ton on Spotify.

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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by shadowplay » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:47 pm

Singlebladepickup wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:47 am
Spotify is crucial to my sanity.

I commute 3-4 hours a day
EDIT: Case in point, I just bought The Gentleman Losers - Permanently Midnight vinyl, which I've listened to a ton on Spotify.
Christ that is a real tale of fortitude, it seems like an incredible burden. I always feel you should be paid for the commute!

I'm glad you like that record, they are a great band, though probably not one Spotify would push at you but it's great to see them getting some word of mouth. I love their combination of old/classic sounds and more modern arrangements.

D
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Re: Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

Post by Grey » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:02 pm

shadowplay wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:05 am
I'm regularly buying 50 only runs and sometimes even lower and 300 only runs are really routine and for me it's been a joy dealing with people directly. I did this pre internet but there was a hell of lot more hassle when it was buying from lists and ads in music mags and dealing with all sorts of nonsense like postal orders. There's no real fun, interaction or discovery on Spotify, at least for me.
I'm not trying to counter your point here, but if an artist is only putting out 50 records and one of them is sitting in your collection, how does that expose anyone to their music? Compared to services like Spotify (or pure digital distribution) that use content algorithims to recommend similar music based on what you listen to, which is a great method of exposure for bands people might otherwise never hear of.

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