Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

[shadowplay]

I'm regularly buying 50 only runs and sometimes even lower and 300 only runs are really routine and for me it's been a joy dealing with people directly. I did this pre internet but there was a hell of lot more hassle when it was buying from lists and ads in music mags and dealing with all sorts of nonsense like postal orders. There's no real fun, interaction or discovery on Spotify, at least for me.

I'm not trying to counter your point here, but if an artist is only putting out 50 records and one of them is sitting in your collection, how does that expose anyone to their music? Compared to services like Spotify (or pure digital distribution) that use content algorithims to recommend similar music based on what you listen to, which is a great method of exposure for bands people might otherwise never hear of.

That's a fair question and I'll answer it as best I can. In general when you do a fifty only lathecut it's more a calling card than a thing to live off. One of may favourite labels is Polytechnic Youth, they release a lot of short run records that sell out in minutes but in some ways this creates more interest. You'll generally see their records listed on nts radio playlists, perhaps hear them late night in the BBC or hear them in clubs. Of course it's like a tantalus to hear something you love and not be able to own it, because a lot of these records don't have a digital but sometimes the tracks have existed online on Bandcamp for a year or so with zero interest and finally this lathecut is funnelling fans to them.

A good example of this is the Tomorrow Syndicate who are local to me and on PY. Some short run singles and a VHS release have got their name out there and hopefully they'll reap the rewards come album time. In their case I think they could do really well but on the other side of the coin you've got groups who are probably going to struggle to find even 500 folk no mater what they do and short run singles are perfect for this.

I also think your reaction to such cottage goings on depends on your musical culture. A lot of these bands don't play live much or even at all and therefore the traditional four in a transit van model doesn't work for them, so this is a way of connecting with small pockets of people dotted about. This might sound a bit weird to a lot of folk but I like buying stuff I've not heard even a second of, it's been my musical culture since I was a kid, when you really did have to buy blind because most of the time you had to order it in and you could never hear it without buying it and I still get a huge thrill when I put something totally unknown on for the first time.

I also think the community aspect of this is a wonderful thing. For example PY is run really open ended, customers have provided artwork, there's been a beer issue and all manner of collaboration between the label and punters. I guess some folk will sneer at it being an elitist clique but it's not like that at all, It's first come first served and even if you've bought everything they've released you don't get stuff set aside.

Another couple of other labels I love are Clay Pipe and Folklore Tapes. The music on these labels just doesn't fit the Spotify model, they are conceptual, beautifully designed and carefully curated and again the music either wouldn't be heard or in some cases wouldn't be made without the host label. The host is also important for anyone lucky enough to get picked up because you are at least guaranteed 500 sales which sounds tiny but at this end of the market it's all about the art and financially washing your face and the day job reality. There's also a question of ethics and these labels are renouned for treating acts fairly and I guess this might look a bit socialist compared to the viperish likes of Spotify but I like buying things that embody the best of us and avoid those that mirror our worst.

The ethics of these labels just fucking shames the industry. I'll give you an OSG related example of the new Lake Ruth album 'Birds of America', which is on Feral Child a sub label of the Polytechnic Youth/Deep Distance/ The Great Pop Supplement family. That full album is in store in the UK for £9.99 with download included. Many records by those heal the world hypocrites in the music industry cost more than double even with massive economies of scale.

D

[burpgun]

I use Apple Music as it was ultimately the thing that integrated best with all the Apple gear I have. It's a little finicky integrating a pretty big personally owned collection with the streamed stuff, but I used Spotify for quite a while, and it was even worse. Also didn't like Spotify's interface.

I don't care about any computer generated playlists or tastemaker promoted stuff. I sometimes find the "for you" genre-centric playlists valuable, but that's not a fundamental part of my streaming experience.

I discover new music the way I always have, via reviews, news stories and word-of-mouth. I picked up an unexpected love of old-school country in the last few years, and streaming services allowed me to start diving into this world and see what was out there. Same thing for classical and experimental music. I don't think I would have been able to do that before, so I listen to a broader array of music now than I ever did in the past. Hell, I even stream stuff I own with the hopes it might put a few more pennies in the artists' coffers.

One artist-negative thing streaming has brought into my life is the ability to try without buying. There are a lot of albums that seem cool based on reviews that simply don't hold up enough to own. In the past, the $10 I dropped on the CD would have brought me a couple of plays and then into storage. Now, I skip that, so I ultimately buy fewer albums. Right now, my wife keeps asking me why I keep the hundreds of CDs I spent thousands over decades to obtain. It's getting hard to defend keeping them.

I'm a big skeptic of our brave new tech world, but streaming music is the future. I live in NYC and buying CDs at a decent price isn't even easy anymore. I'm right around the corner from Rough Trade and there's zero chance I'm spending $20 on a CD in 2018. Never got into vinyl and in any case, with a family, I do not have time to sit down for an hour anymore and listen to an album from stop to finish. Trent Rezner's got a vested interest due to his Apple employment, but there are a lot of interviews out there where he speaks intelligently about this new landscape.

[mediocreplayer]

Music streaming, I think I’m doing it wrong

You are correct: You are doing it wrong.

Here is what you can do: if the music you own is also streamable on Spotify, then just go ahead and listen as you normally would. After some time, this division into sub-genres etc. will happen automatically. It will even make genre-specific playlists for you if you are interested. If your music is not already on Spotify you can upload it and the same thing will happen.

The arguments against streaming make me feel like I am on TGP with a bunch of old wankers. There should be *no* argument.

1. I grew up in a place where the only possibility to buy a record was if someone I knew was traveling to the UK or the US and would bring it back with them. No one has to do that now: regardless of where you live, you can have access to music. For the majority of the world's population, this cannot be a bad thing.

2. As burpgun above me alludes, most music is shit and not worth spending money on. I used to read reviews and then buy records. I even bought the first Dream Theater record for fuck's sake, because of a review. Now there is no reason for this to happen. You only buy what you actually want to own, which is how it should be with anything, not just music.

3. Anyone who makes a record with a run of 50 units is not going to be affected by streaming.

4. Friends or record stores or online forums...nothing compares. I have never been as exposed to so much music as I am now because of streaming. It is a golden age for music listeners. I don't even know how it happens any more, but I find myself listening to things like this which normally I would not be exposed to at all. I have found hundreds of artists that I like because of this. I would not have gone to their shows or gave them any money because I did not even know they existed.

5. If all else fails, you can still do everything you liked before streaming existed. If you want to buy $18.99 cds go ahead. If you want to buy the purple 180 gram vinyl no one will stop you.

I'm glad you like that record, they are a great band, though probably not one Spotify would push at you
D

David -- this and other posts you have made in the past clearly show that you do not understand how Spotify works. I too learned about that GL record when Spotify told me it came out and I would like it, which I did. Many of the music I learned about from you (which is a lot) led me to other Spotify discoveries which I fed back into you and you gave other suggestions based on those. It is not either/or.

You obviously like how you do music and that is great. But dont crap on stuff you don't understand because it does not help anybody and makes you sound like a classic rock Led Zeppelin fan, which I imagine is the biggest insult that can be hurled at you.

[shadowplay]

David -- this and other posts you have made in the past clearly show that you do not understand how Spotify works. I too learned about that GL record when Spotify told me it came out and I would like it, which I did. Many of the music I learned about from you (which is a lot) led me to other Spotify discoveries which I fed back into you and you gave other suggestions based on those. It is not either/or.

You obviously like how you do music and that is great. But dont crap on stuff you don't understand because it does not help anybody and makes you sound like a classic rock Led Zeppelin fan, which I imagine is the biggest insult that can be hurled at you.

Point taken and yes that would be an insult!

I'll now just go back to not liking their business model.

D

[shadowplay]

^^^

I fundamentally just don't like the idea of a computer picking stuff for me. This might seem irrational but there you go, it makes me feel all Ned Ludd* and I'm an incredibly irrational and chaotic record buyer anyway. There's also the fact that I just don't like the very idea of Spotify or any of the streaming services, they just aren't for me but I can see how they suit other people. I'm just a bit of a dinosaur and find them aesthetically and sensually wanting.

I'm a hypocrite because I do fundamentally believe that all that matters is the music and not the format and I'd go pretty far to avoid any conversation on records as a 'thing' or some sort of instagram where folk post pictures of vinyl but what can I say I'm all aflame with contradictions.

D

*CD did this to me too if I'm honest. I was just repulsed by them.

[NickD]

I just don't like the very idea of Spotify or any of the streaming services, they just aren't for me but I can see how they suit other people. I'm just a bit of a dinosaur and find them aesthetically and sensually wanting.

This is me.

I want to buy a physical item, a thing, not rent the right to listen to some music for a defined period of time which is to my understanding how streaming services work.

Its the same reason I've never really bought digital releases unless I couldn't get a record or a CD.

It seems to me a little like hiring a car when you want to use one, that works fine for some people, but even if I didn't drive very much, that wouldn't satisfy me. Not that I just want to own everything, I do fine without plenty of gadgets and trinkets, but the things I do consume, use etc, I want to get the best out of them, and that includes owning the music I listen to.

[shadowplay]

I just don't like the very idea of Spotify or any of the streaming services, they just aren't for me but I can see how they suit other people. I'm just a bit of a dinosaur and find them aesthetically and sensually wanting.

This is me.

I want to buy a physical item, a thing, not rent the right to listen to some music for a defined period of time which is to my understanding how streaming services work.

Its the same reason I've never really bought digital releases unless I couldn't get a record or a CD.

It seems to me a little like hiring a car when you want to use one, that works fine for some people, but even if I didn't drive very much, that wouldn't satisfy me. Not that I just want to own everything, I do fine without plenty of gadgets and trinkets, but the things I do consume, use etc, I want to get the best out of them, and that includes owning the music I listen to.

Yeah I agree with all that and I think that digital lacks some interaction i enjoy. I mean an hour ago I put on the Lone Taxidermist album and weird as this may seem the lemon latex glove she stuffed in the sleeve and the personal note including lipstick kiss made me laugh as much as they did the first time because it's part of the performance art side of Natalie's music. Mrs S; WHY IS THIS WOMAN SENDING YOU A RUBBER GLOVE...HAS IT BEEN USED! Then I stuck on the new C.A.R album Pinned and it came in a stencil sleeve she made herself for the first 50 and for me things like that are just a nice part of your day, stupidly ephemeral as they are.

On a more serious note I can't be the only one who sees albums in very low pressing numbers getting a lot of coverage but taking an age to sell out. I guess the general public and reviewers and end of year lists could be out of kilter, like the way that Greatest Showman musical shite is the big people's choice film but hated by the critics but I just worry lots of folk are listening through places that don't pay the artist fairly or at all. I think this really needs to be sorted out as a matter of urgency, commercially, poltically, philosophically and ethically.

D
D

[Grey]

Digital streaming and physical media are not mutually exclusive, services like Spotify and Pandora are a way to discover music and a way to take a big sample size of various genres and condense it into a terminology people can understand by content recommendation. I'm willing to bet that many people who use that service will then go out and buy an album they really like, often just for the sake of owning it.

Streaming is an addition to music consumption, not a replacement for all other forms of it. I don't know why people are constantly afraid of physical media being replaced, when the very fact that records currently hold such cultural signifigance is evidence of how much people are effected by the "romance" of physically playing music regardless of there being "better" options. Yes, there are guys like David who "always bought them" and have just continued to do so, but correct me if i'm wrong here I don't think they're the ones who have driven the "vinyl resurgence" over the last decade.

I also think your reaction to such cottage goings on depends on your musical culture. A lot of these bands don't play live much or even at all and therefore the traditional four in a transit van model doesn't work for them, so this is a way of connecting with small pockets of people dotted about. This might sound a bit weird to a lot of folk but I like buying stuff I've not heard even a second of, it's been my musical culture since I was a kid, when you really did have to buy blind because most of the time you had to order it in and you could never hear it without buying it and I still get a huge thrill when I put something totally unknown on for the first time.

This is completely fair, and no one is stopping you from experiencing music this way. Hell if you think about it, Spotify is basically radio with preferential treatment and no ads, i'm sure there are plenty of people who thought the "listen to whatever comes on next" radio "streaming" archetype was totally dead but here it is again existing in another form.

All of these services are currently co-existing, Streaming, Records, CD's, Bandcamp/Soundcloud, Youtube, hell even Cassette is getting some attention.

[Singlebladepickup]

I just don't like the very idea of Spotify or any of the streaming services, they just aren't for me but I can see how they suit other people. I'm just a bit of a dinosaur and find them aesthetically and sensually wanting.

This is me.

I want to buy a physical item, a thing, not rent the right to listen to some music for a defined period of time which is to my understanding how streaming services work.

Its the same reason I've never really bought digital releases unless I couldn't get a record or a CD.

It seems to me a little like hiring a car when you want to use one, that works fine for some people, but even if I didn't drive very much, that wouldn't satisfy me. Not that I just want to own everything, I do fine without plenty of gadgets and trinkets, but the things I do consume, use etc, I want to get the best out of them, and that includes owning the music I listen to.

Yeah I agree with all that and I think that digital lacks some interaction i enjoy. I mean an hour ago I put on the Lone Taxidermist album and weird as this may seem the lemon latex glove she stuffed in the sleeve and the personal note including lipstick kiss made me laugh as much as they did the first time because it's part of the performance art side of Natalie's music. Mrs S; WHY IS THIS WOMAN SENDING YOU A RUBBER GLOVE...HAS IT BEEN USED! Then I stuck on the new C.A.R album Pinned and it came in a stencil sleeve she made herself for the first 50 and for me things like that are just a nice part of your day, stupidly ephemeral as they are.

On a more serious note I can't be the only one who sees albums in very low pressing numbers getting a lot of coverage but taking an age to sell out. I guess the general public and reviewers and end of year lists could be out of kilter, like the way that Greatest Showman musical shite is the big people's choice film but hated by the critics but I just worry lots of folk are listening through places that don't pay the artist fairly or at all. I think this really needs to be sorted out as a matter of urgency, commercially, poltically, philosophically and ethically.

D
D

Honestly, the scarcity of pressings bugs me. I can't afford to buy records all the time, and when I do I want to buy something I've been listening to lately, not just something I think will sell out soon. I didn't buy Stereolab - Dots and Loops when it was $20 on discogs. Now it's like $60 shipped for the cheapest one. Why can't I buy an album that isn't even rare? I'm not going to buy something just because I might not be able to buy it later, that feels like I'm rationing for a great vinyl winter. It's not as fun. If I could buy all the time, though, I admit it might add to the fun.

[Jaguar018]

I'm not trying to counter your point here, but if an artist is only putting out 50 records and one of them is sitting in your collection, how does that expose anyone to their music? Compared to services like Spotify (or pure digital distribution) that use content algorithims to recommend similar music based on what you listen to, which is a great method of exposure for bands people might otherwise never hear of.

'Exposure' is just another way of saying they aren't going to pay you anything. People pull that shit more and more trying to get free stuff for exposure. If that was really profitable for bands then Spotify would probably change their setup to screw them over more.

I'll give them a go now and then and I have found some bands I like with the help of Amazon or whatever. I feel like the purchases I make on Amazon are only a small fraction of my total intake. My tastes have changed since I bought The Shins album in 2001 but I still feel like they still weigh that in, and have me slated for that particular type of twee hipster shit. I'm SO much more interesting now Zack Braff was never funny to me and he can start a new go fund me campaign to go fuck himself for all I care.

What is this thread about again?

My snooty opinion is that those sorts of things are great for music fans who don't make that much of an effort***, but for people that are already turning over stones for hidden gems and lost treasures you're not going to find all that much.

(*** if you are commuting 2+ hours a day, you totally need something like this!)

[Telliot]

Digital streaming and physical media are not mutually exclusive, services like Spotify and Pandora are a way to discover music and a way to take a big sample size of various genres and condense it into a terminology people can understand by content recommendation. I'm willing to bet that many people who use that service will then go out and buy an album they really like, often just for the sake of owning it.

Streaming is an addition to music consumption, not a replacement for all other forms of it. I don't know why people are constantly afraid of physical media being replaced, when the very fact that records currently hold such cultural signifigance is evidence of how much people are effected by the "romance" of physically playing music regardless of there being "better" options. Yes, there are guys like David who "always bought them" and have just continued to do so, but correct me if i'm wrong here I don't think they're the ones who have driven the "vinyl resurgence" over the last decade.

This is exactly my philosophy. I like to use streaming services for both discovery, and a way to listen to an album before I decide to buy and add it to my permanent collection (I liken it to the days you could sit in a listening booth before buying the record). But I'm constantly looking for new music (meaning 'music that is new to me'). Streaming just happens to be one of the ways I find it.

[thedude99]

Agree as well they are not mutually exclusive. I stream music all day at work. I’d get nothing done if I was getting up to change records all the time. In the evening, I love nothing more than sitting down with my turntable.

I don’t care where music recommendations come from - I just want to hear good music. Spotify’s recommendation algorithms are great. I’ve found a lot of new music through them. It’s just another avenue along with the others.

I can’t even begin to describe how amazing a service like Spotify would have been when I was growing up. I lived in a small city with no culture, no good radio stations and no good music stores.

The business model is sketchy - but the old model was destroyed before they came along. They’ve capitalized- not created the problem.

[eskmsaul]

If y'all want a more radio-like experience, I suggest http://radiooooo.com/#. Pick a country, pick a decade, pick the mood and boom, you're set. It's especially great if you want to explore music from other countries.

[shadowplay]

If y'all want a more radio-like experience, I suggest http://radiooooo.com/#. Pick a country, pick a decade, pick the mood and boom, you're set. It's especially great if you want to explore music from other countries.

I probably wouldn't use it but out of interest I clicked some countries after selecting 'now' and the six records were all records I owned and liked bar one by Yula Kasp, Locolossus, Prins Thomas, Pional and lindstrom and Christabel. Sadly there's was a Pete Doherty shit in the fruit salad but five out of six is not bad., especially as it's not trying to match my taste.

D

[monsterdonkey]

I buy records and cds and I used to download a bunch of stuff when Oink and What were still things. I didn’t like Apple Music and I really didn’t like what it did to my library. I signed up and it did the iTunes Match thing and when I quit nothing was ever the same. Then the iPod Classic went away and itunes lost me as a customer. I do use Spotify fairly often, and I just recently tried the download function. It’s pretty good to be able to check out a new record while at work the morning it is released.
Formats have changed a million times since I started buying records. I was born in the 70s so I was coming of age when albums were being released on cassette. What an awful format, but everything comes around. I bought Paul’s Boutique on cassette because I was on a road trip and I wanted to listen to it immediately. I think that one was out on vinyl, cassette and CD simultaneously. I regret not buying the 1st pressing vinyl as well as the tape, but I needed gas money.
I like the ritual and sonic richness of vinyl, but I’m not opposed to digital as long as it’s a decent bit rate. Spotify premium is acceptable since they let you choose the rates. I like to hear new things (thanks for mentioning the Gentlemen Losers) and I can’t afford to buy as many records as I’d like. Streaming is a good compromise for me right now.

This book https://thenewpress.com/books/new-analog by Damon Krukowski talks a lot about streaming vs analog and the implications of temporary music. Ironically I borrowed it from the library.