man, screw verlaine and lloyd...

[timtam]

I don't think the fact that Verlaine wrote a lot of the riffs diminishes the contributions of Lloyd. In fact, though the interview gives a rough breakdown of the division of labor, I still don't feel significantly closer to knowing who did what than I did before.

I'm comfortable in that I don't see Verlaine having come up with any of the faster, more difficult stuff. He has a great knack for cool 'simple' playing, but all the cool faster runs were Lloyd's - he had the knack for those. If you look at Verlaine's solo stuff and what he did/does in Television post-Lloyd there's none of that type of thing. It seems that Lloyd should have got much more official writing credit than he did.

https://www.discogs.com/Television-Marq ... ase/557233
"Songwriter [Songs Written By] – Tom Verlaine (tracks: 1 to 5, 7 to 13) "
So Lloyd only got writing credit on Guiding Light (6). None on Elevation (and others?) where he devised and played the key guitar parts that make that song !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquee_Moon
Richard Lloyd – guitar (solo on tracks 1, 4, 5, and 6), vocals
Tom Verlaine – guitar (solo on tracks 2, 3, 4, 7, eight), keyboards, lead vocals, production
1. "See No Evil"
2. "Venus"
3. "Friction"
4. "Marquee Moon"
5. "Elevation"
6. "Guiding Light" (Verlaine and Richard Lloyd)
7. "Prove It"
8. "Torn Curtain"

"If he had a guitar part he couldn’t play while singing he’d give me the part, and I would make it mine. Like, on “Marquee Moon,” basically, I just took over his part so that he could solo."

The part that Lloyd plays (for 5 minutes straight !) in back of Verlaine's 'stream of consciousness' solo is the two-finger/two-chord 'riff' that Verlaine plays at the start. That's the sort of 'riff' that Verlaine came up with. Don't get me wrong - I love simple riffs ... I think it was Rowland Howard who said 'If you can play one note well you can play guitar' .. I totally agree - I mostly hate 'virtuouso' guitarists. But I do think it's fairly clear who did what in Television.

I think we're probably all in agreement that Television was a Verlaine / Lloyd thing (plus Smith / Ficca) ... and only Verlaine took issue with that.

[UlricvonCatalyst]

He seems to take pains to differentiate leads from solos, which is interesting to me since I always associate the term "lead" guitar with the guy who does the solos. But I see the practicality of defining it this way in a band like Television where the lines can get blurred.

Sorry for the lack of clarity - where I said 'leads' I should've said 'solos'. I agree that it makes sense to describe Lloyd's background playing as lead parts. You could say the same about what Johnny Marr did in the Smiths and Peter Buck did in REM much of the time; a guitarist whose parts go beyond just simple arpeggiated chord inversions, Venus being a prime example, can elevate the group to a whole other level.

I'm not aware of a Television before Richard Lloyd since it's my understanding he co-founded the band.

Could be false memory syndrome on my part. I went down a Richard Lloyd rabbit-hole on YouTube one time and found an in-depth interview where he talked at length about his (early) life history. I had an idea that Television was already underway with Verlaine and Hell, maybe under another name, before he joined. Maybe I just imagined hearing an early sans-Lloyd version of Venus with Hell on bass....

In any case, I guess Verlaine had already conceived some of the guitar parts before he got together with Lloyd.

[Maggieo]

Television is considered an "offset band," but the more I learn about Richard's part in their music, the more I realize that most of the best bits come from Richard's Stratocaster.

[daemon]

Television is considered an "offset band," but the more I learn about Richard's part in their music, the more I realize that most of the best bits come from Richard's Stratocaster.

Yea, he has some great instructional videos out there, and every single one of them is him with a variety of Strats. He's actually all around my area this weekend, but unfortunately the stars are not aligned. He'd be a super interesting guy to talk to.

[scottT]

Television is considered an "offset band," but the more I learn about Richard's part in their music, the more I realize that most of the best bits come from Richard's Stratocaster.

Yea, he has some great instructional videos out there, and every single one of them is him with a variety of Strats. He's actually all around my area this weekend, but unfortunately the stars are not aligned. He'd be a super interesting guy to talk to.

In print and on those videos he sometimes comes across as a guitar guru or a musical philosopher. Pretty deep, and slightly trippy. Interesting for sure. I'm glad he has been so forthcoming about those days.

We had a discission here about the gear used on MM that was an eye opener IF accurate (and it is quite detailed). Lloyd mostly played a Telecaster, and Verlaine used a Danelectro and a Gretsch Tennessean with a Jazzmaster credited on only two tracks, and "sometimes" a Jaguar.

[marqueemoon]

I’m reading Chris Stamey’s book and he does a fair amount of gushing about Television.

Apparently the band’s first choice to engineer Marquee Moon was Rudy Van Gelder. My mind is slightly blown wondering what that might sound like.

[timtam]

I’m reading Chris Stamey’s book and he does a fair amount of gushing about Television.

Just looked up that book. But also found Lloyd's memoir which he published in late 2017. I did not know that. Gets very good Amazon reviews. Anyone read it ?
https://www.amazon.com/Everything-Combu ... 0997693762

[budda12ax7]

I've actually never listen to this.

[UlricvonCatalyst]

Television is considered an "offset band," but the more I learn about Richard's part in their music, the more I realize that most of the best bits come from Richard's Stratocaster.

That came as a surprise to me too after being spurred on to finally find a Jazzmaster on the back of my Marquee Moon obsession.

[marqueemoon]

I’m reading Chris Stamey’s book and he does a fair amount of gushing about Television.

Just looked up that book. But also found Lloyd's memoir which he published in late 2017. I did not know that. Gets very good Amazon reviews. Anyone read it ?
https://www.amazon.com/Everything-Combu ... 0997693762

Sweet. Just put a hold on that at the library.

The Stamey book was pretty good too.

[Ceylon]

Marquee Moon connects people. I knew it was a good album before I listened to it (I heard people speak in reverence) and when I found it at my uncle's apartment while watching his cats I listened to it and left it on the stereo as a way of saying that "yeah, I know what it is".

He ended up giving me the CD and a couple of years later I got it on vinyl too. I brought it with me to the Netherlands when I went to uni and one of my housemates immediately took a shine to it. To this day, whenever we meet, we usually drink until the morning hours and at one point or other, Marquee Moon gets played, either in its entirety or all the songs jumbled up, and we both sing along drunkely. I ended up giving him my vinyl copy since I don't have a player anymore, and I hear he treasures it. Now I just need to get myself another one

[marqueemoon]

I’m reading Chris Stamey’s book and he does a fair amount of gushing about Television.

Just looked up that book. But also found Lloyd's memoir which he published in late 2017. I did not know that. Gets very good Amazon reviews. Anyone read it ?
https://www.amazon.com/Everything-Combu ... 0997693762

Sweet. Just put a hold on that at the library.

The Stamey book was pretty good too.

So... the Lloyd book is not very good.

Very little about Television I didn’t already know. Lots about drugs. Sex stuff I’d just as soon not know about. Lots of dippy personal insights/observations.

[timtam]

Just looked up that book. But also found Lloyd's memoir which he published in late 2017. I did not know that. Gets very good Amazon reviews. Anyone read it ?
https://www.amazon.com/Everything-Combu ... 0997693762

Sweet. Just put a hold on that at the library.

The Stamey book was pretty good too.

So... the Lloyd book is not very good.

Very little about Television I didn’t already know. Lots about drugs. Sex stuff I’d just as soon not know about. Lots of dippy personal insights/observations.

Thanks for reporting back. Will save me buying it. I've been working through band biographies from that era in recent years ... Magazine, Banshees, Cure, Joy Division, Birthday Party.

[UlricvonCatalyst]

So... the Lloyd book is not very good....Lots of dippy personal insights/observations.

Yeah, anyone who has watched his music theory-heavy YouTube videos has probably had enough of that to last them a lifetime. I think he fancies himself as some sort of Zen Master or something, as do many others who took too many drugs at some point.

I might read it for the sex stuff, though....

[StevenO]

Television is considered an "offset band," but the more I learn about Richard's part in their music, the more I realize that most of the best bits come from Richard's Stratocaster.

They're not even mostly a Strat band if we take this into any consideration:



Lots of delicious Tele, Silvertone, and some Gretsch too! Great sound and playing no matter what they used.