RIP Fulltone

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mbene085
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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by mbene085 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:18 pm

People who engage in ad hominems often perceive ad hominems where there are none. I never called you intellectually dishonest or lazy, I called using the excuse of "virtue signalling" those things, because it is. I can think a thing you've done in one specific instance is lazy without making any presumptions about you in general, which is exactly how I feel. I don't make snap judgements of an entire person's character based on one position they take on one issue as small as guitar pedals made by a toxic male homophobe.

Is virtue signalling a social phenomenon? Of course it is. But it is so unbearably patronizing to apply the label at will, because it immediately devalues someone's actions as disingenuous or superficial.

It's fine that you don't feel comfortable owning it, but feel comfortable advertising and selling it. I'd feel more comfortable covering it up and never talking about it again, in order to decrease Fulltone's share of the guitar cultural zeitgeist. They're both legit practices. It's not unlike the time my wife mistakenly bought a jar of meat sauce. I've been vegetarian for 20+ years and didn't feel comfortable eating it, but would have felt guilty wasting it. They already had our money, the cow was already dead, the jar was open, and nobody wins by wasting food. My wife, who is more recently vegetarian and less uncomfortable eating meat, just ate it while I prepared something different.

Am I wrong for not eating something that makes me uncomfortable? Is she wrong for eating something she doesn't believe in? Or are neither of us wrong, and both ethically justified in our actions? My refusal to eat it wasn't virtue signalling, and her having eaten it doesnt mean all her preview vegetarian meals were the disingenuous virtue signal.

Same thing here. You're not wrong for selling, I'm not wrong for wanting to cover it up. None of these actions are mere virtue signalling if there is deliberation and moral consistency behind them.

To put the shoe on the other foot, if you were uncomfortable owning it, why would you want someone else to? It clearly meant more to you to get $100 back than to take a stand against the company by tearing it apart and recycling, so maybe selling it to someone else is the real virtue signal. "Boo, hiss, bad, but I'll make a small profit while I make a show of getting rid of it."

The knife cuts both ways.
Last edited by mbene085 on Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by øøøøøøø » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:24 pm

FiestaRed335 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:07 pm
Painting over the pedal but still using it is intellectually dishonest and lazy. If one truly had a moral issue with Fulltone (as I do), they would not be comfortable using their pedals. I avoid JHS for the same reason. Covering up the brand name on the pedal shows that one is still comfortable with owning and using the pedal, but simply does not want others to see them using it.
I'm not so sure about this premise.

The point, as I interpret it, is to avoid enriching bigots (with the goal of denying them a platform from which to spew bigotry). This is a pragmatic objective, and erasing the branding is a proactive step to this end (avoiding future purchases goes without saying).

Different people have different ways they'd move through this situation, but if someone is doing good, honest creative work with a product they purchased years ago, I wonder whether we really need them to change the way they work just because it later turned out that the manufacturer of said product was a sociopath or whatever?

I'm open to being convinced/educated, I'm just not sure I see how this course harms anyone except the (presumably-innocent) artist.

On the other hand, obscuring branding has real impacts. There's a reason it's common practice to tape over logos if you endorse a different product.

This is true particularly if we have a platform, or are even adjacent to a platform. People will come up after your gigs and scrutinize your pedalboards, take pictures, ask questions, etc. For every kid that wonders "what that weird homemade looking pedal is," that's one sale that the company doesn't get.

Fortunately, I don't use any of the products mentioned in this thread (unless you count a sixty-two year old Danelectro!), so I don't face this dilemma.

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by MechaBulletBill » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:39 pm

FiestaRed335 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:07 pm
Painting over the pedal but still using it is intellectually dishonest and lazy.
do you wanna buy the taped-over dejavibe my parents gave to me as a gift? that i rely on for *multiple* songs in my band's set? do you want to sell it for me? if not then stick to worrying about your own pedalboard and don't assume to know my mind, friend.

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by peterherman » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:29 pm

FiestaRed335 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:07 pm
mbene085 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:33 am
"Virtue signalling" is just a term that is used to dismiss someone's thoughts and beliefs. It is meant to devalue their motives, and is a huge pillar of the American right-wing media machine. Like, people can't possibly believe in something, they're just showing off how they want to be perceived.

Yes, it's intellectually dishonest and lazy. That's the point.

Owning a pedal and covering it up is a better way to boycott a company than selling it. Why? If you cover it up and just answer "some pedal I got at a garage sale" if anyone asks you what it is, you've stopped advertising the company's products. Placing a used ad doesn't generate more cash for them directly, but it does provide free advertisement, as in "hey, this pedal is worth buying," and whoever buys it might like it and buy more from the company.

Covering it up, coupled with no longer talking about them in order to halt word-of-mouth advertisement, is actually a more powerful way to divest, and can go much farther than virtue signalling.
You tell me that I am dismissing someones thoughts and beliefs and devaluing their motives, yet you then implied that I was intellectually dishonest and lazy, very ironic.

Virtue signaling is a real thing that is widely practiced on both ends of the political spectrum with increased frequency, and I stand by what I said. The right tends to virtue signal to each other around their ideas of "patriotism", religious purity, etc. I am surprised at how many dismiss this concept as a right-wing ad hominem attack. My career works to advance progressive causes, and I cringe at the suggestion that this is a one-sided practice. Clearly, the term has become just another heuristic.

Painting over the pedal but still using it is intellectually dishonest and lazy. If one truly had a moral issue with Fulltone (as I do), they would not be comfortable using their pedals. I avoid JHS for the same reason. Covering up the brand name on the pedal shows that one is still comfortable with owning and using the pedal, but simply does not want others to see them using it. In a more histrionic sense, they may even want others to see that they are using a painted-over Fulltone pedal. What does this accomplish?

While I had a moral issue enough to get rid of my Fulltone pedal, I still needed to recuperate some the money I paid for it. I think everything that has happened to Fulltone since has been deserved for his despicable comments, and I welcome socially conscious consumerism such as this. I will adamantly try to persuade others regarding Fulltone, JHS and Sweetwater, but I will not try to use shame to pressure other consumers. That quickly goes from doing the right thing to self-serving sanctimony.

Since you're apparently involved in progressive politics as a career, you certainly know that while the practice of virtue signaling knows no political affinity the complaint about it absolutely does.

There are better ways to make your 50 posts for the buy/sell board than to pick this particular fight.

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by FiestaRed335 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:09 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:18 pm

To put the shoe on the other foot, if you were uncomfortable owning it, why would you want someone else to? It clearly meant more to you to get $100 back than to take a stand against the company by tearing it apart and recycling, so maybe selling it to someone else is the real virtue signal. "Boo, hiss, bad, but I'll make a small profit while I make a show of getting rid of it."

The knife cuts both ways.
I suppose you make a good point here that I hadn't thought of. I sold rather than scrap it because I needed the money. Not happy to admit it, but whatever. When this unfolded I quietly and quickly dumped the pedal. I don't really have a problem with someone else owning it because it doesn't put any more money in Fuller's pockets. There is the problem of promoting their pedals, but that is on them, not me.

I then saw my social media flooded with painted pedals. Perhaps the term "virtue signalling" presumes too much about someone's motivations, but the painted pedals trend definitely gave me an uneasy feeling, as I really I don't see how one could be okay with keeping the pedal on their board. I did see one musician who painted their pedal and then auctioned it, and thereby donated the proceeds to BLM. That is something I can get behind, and a different conversation all together.

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by FiestaRed335 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:38 pm

peterherman wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:29 pm

Since you're apparently involved in progressive politics as a career, you certainly know that while the practice of virtue signaling knows no political affinity the complaint about it absolutely does.

There are better ways to make your 50 posts for the buy/sell board than to pick this particular fight.
Maybe the right makes use of the term (as a heuristic) more often.

There is no need to be a jerk.

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by mbene085 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:46 pm

FiestaRed335 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:09 pm
I suppose you make a good point here that I hadn't thought of. I sold rather than scrap it because I needed the money. Not happy to admit it, but whatever. When this unfolded I quietly and quickly dumped the pedal. I don't really have a problem with someone else owning it because it doesn't put any more money in Fuller's pockets. There is the problem of promoting their pedals, but that is on them, not me.

I then saw my social media flooded with painted pedals. Perhaps the term "virtue signalling" presumes too much about someone's motivations, but the painted pedals trend definitely gave me an uneasy feeling
That was my point, though. Writing off the actions of others as mere virtue signalling presumes a number of things that you do not, in fact, know.

That's why I respect your decision to sell it so long as you don't look down your nose at those who chose to keep and relabel. There's no single path of appropriate action in a circumstance such as this.

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by andy_tchp » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:03 pm

It's also precisely none of your business what anyone else decides to do with something as inconsequential as their own equipment.

But I'm glad that after such a lengthy stay here as a member you were able to ascribe motivations to those who responded and write them off as 'virtue signalling' (also good to see we avoided any 'self-serving sanctimony' too :whistle: )

I strongly encourage stepping away from 'social media' if you find you're being 'flooded' with anything. Social media sites are the most toxic and antisocial parts of the internet and serve no positive purpose whatsoever. They're not real life.
MechaBulletBill wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:28 am
“virtue signalling” - the arsehole’s way of telling you to shut up when they know you're right
I DO like this line.
"I don't know why we asked him to join the band 'cause the rest of us don't like country music all that much; we just like Graham Lee."
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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by mackerelmint » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:51 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:33 am
"Virtue signalling" is just a term that is used to dismiss someone's thoughts and beliefs.
I don't agree with that. I mean, it certainly can be used that way, but it originates as a descriptor of performative outrage. I've been on the shit end of that stick before, making disability jokes as a disabled person and being subject to denunciation by completely able bodied people who knew perfectly well where the jokes were coming from. And THAT, my friend, is virtue signalling, and my own experiences are pretty indelible in the face of the way the term has been weaponized in the last 5 years or so. You still see people actually virtue signalling, the try-too-hards who enjoy being offended and joining pile-ons.
This is an excellent rectangle

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by mackerelmint » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:52 pm

andy_tchp wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:03 pm
MechaBulletBill wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:28 am
“virtue signalling” - the arsehole’s way of telling you to shut up when they know you're right
I DO like this line.
Indeed!
This is an excellent rectangle

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by mackerelmint » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:57 pm

Tearing apart and scrapping a pedal that you've already paid good money for is the guitar equivalent of...

Remember in 2003, when the Bush administration demanded that France join the coalition, even though France got its oil from Iraq and had every reason not to fight against their own interests, and then a bunch of rednecks "showed them" by making a big show of pouring out bottles of French wine they'd already purchased?

Yeah, it's the same thing. Anyone who would even consider doing it a dipshit.
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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by soggy mittens » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:16 pm

I think at this point we can only be too aware of the generalizations of other people's motives, sure you'll get people doing this or that and others that don't but it doesn't even matter. That is their choice to make, what is your choice? One that isn't going to get you caught up in any BS? Like not judging others, doing your own thing and not giving a shit what other people think. If you want to keep using a pedal then do it, you want to rebrand it (for whatever reasoning) then do it. F_k even sell it, whatever, it doesn't matter. WHAT MATTERS IS whether you judge others or not. We can only speak for ourselves and we can only express what we think and feel is right for us as individuals. Support or don't support, just don't judge other's subjective opinion or impose speculative motives.
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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by FiestaRed335 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:12 pm

andy_tchp wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:03 pm
It's also precisely none of your business what anyone else decides to do with something as inconsequential as their own equipment.

But I'm glad that after such a lengthy stay here as a member you were able to ascribe motivations to those who responded and write them off as 'virtue signalling' (also good to see we avoided any 'self-serving sanctimony' too :whistle: )

I strongly encourage stepping away from 'social media' if you find you're being 'flooded' with anything. Social media sites are the most toxic and antisocial parts of the internet and serve no positive purpose whatsoever. They're not real life.
MechaBulletBill wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:28 am
“virtue signalling” - the arsehole’s way of telling you to shut up when they know you're right
I DO like this line.
Do I not have a right to post here because I am new? I don't understand the multiple references to my tenure on the forum as it relates to this subject.

I am still amazed by hang up on the semantics of the term "virtue signaling".

An example of the "virtue signaling" from the right (which is far more disgusting): the people deliberately buying John Cruz guitars and used Fulltone Pedals and broadcasting those purchases to those around them, the internet, social media etc.

Now by no means am I equating keeping and painting a Fulltone pedal to this. I am pointing out that in both cases, these can be construed as symbolic gestures that are somewhat meaningless. I don't see how painting an Octavia Fuzz to say "Abolish the Fuzz" has any practical effect on things. Face it, you have no problem keeping the pedal. That is totally fine and shouldn't be shamed, which was the point of my initial post on this.

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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by soggy mittens » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:28 pm

Not that it matters but if someone wants to express that they don't want to support a hater company then that is actually fine. If they change the pedal then that is also fine, it would be weird if they didn't and someone saw the pedal on their board and was like "eerr I thOUgT YOu DIdn'T SuPOort HAtER ComPanYs?", and they'd have to explain that they bought the pedal BEFORE that news came to light, but regardless it doesn't matter what they say or do with the pedal it is their pedal, they payed for it they can do whatever the F they want with it. There is typically a bigger picture for a lot of situations and there will always be those that just want to catch people out because they...have... unchecked...childhood...trauma... OR WHATEVER THEIR THING IS. Support haters or don't, just don't judge other's subjective opin...oh wait I said that already.
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Re: RIP Fulltone

Post by øøøøøøø » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:59 am

FiestaRed335 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:12 pm
Do I not have a right to post here because I am new? I don't understand the multiple references to my tenure on the forum as it relates to this subject.

I am still amazed by hang up on the semantics of the term "virtue signaling".

An example of the "virtue signaling" from the right (which is far more disgusting): the people deliberately buying John Cruz guitars and used Fulltone Pedals and broadcasting those purchases to those around them, the internet, social media etc.
Communication can be a tricky thing sometimes. Words take on new significances and shades of meaning over time, all the time, and it can be easy to just miss it now and again. I've certainly done it before.

This is a case where you (inadvertently?) chose to use a phrase that has become part of the core language of the online far-right. The concept itself may or may not be be partisan, strictly-speaking, but the implied associations with the phrase are loaded indeed.

This is not a new thing. Consider phrases like "states' rights" or "family values." If someone had just landed here from another planet, they may miss the partisan association, but anyone who's lived in the US in the last century would raise more than an eyebrow at a self-described progressive who was prattling on and on using that language.

Because everyone knows that those two phrases have long been used used to signify "in-group" among conservatives.

"Virtue signaling" is used to signify "out-group" instead, and its widespread use in that context is more-recent. But it's become similarly-loaded as language, hence the negative reaction to your choice of words. Take that under advisement and do with that information as you wish. It's perfectly fine to say "I didn't realize" and move on.

Generally, the burden is on the communicator to make sure they're communicating in a clear way. We all make mistakes. But if you're in a room full of 20 people and you find your intentions misconstrued by literally everyone, the error may lie with the one person, and not with each of those individual 20 people, you know?

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