line 6 m13

[FightingPlankton]

Just picked up m13 for $100 from Craigslist seller. Tested it at guys house breifly. Figured I'd give it a chance... if not I can flip it for double my money.

[InLimbo]

Damn, that's really good deal. I didn't pay much less for my M5, ha.

They're okay. I use mine on my board for effects that I don't want to spend money on a dedicated pedal for like chorus or flange. Gets the job done, but they're not very inspiring or exciting.

There are a couple of cool delays, though.

[burpgun]

I got my M13 some time near when they came out, and it remains a pretty important part of my setup. But over the time I've had it, I've also built up the rest of my board with some really high-quality stuff, so it's changed how I use my M13.

When I got it, I viewed it as something that could replace your existing board. Now, I use it to get sounds I only want sometimes, like a chorus or flanger. I have those pedals but use them so infrequently I don't want them taking space on my board. I also no longer care if the M13 ever modeled anything accurately. Instead, I try to use it to create special effects, like linking a bunch of delays, feeding that into the rest of my set up. There are mysterious things about the unit, like why its tape delay setting sounds so inferior to the the Line 6 Echo Park pedal.

What makes me anxious about the unit is that while I've never gigged with it, some of the foot switches are getting a little erratic. I've got 30 year old Boss pedals that keep on trucking, so flaky switches less than a decade in isn't cool. There are also small things about it that suggest the M13 was not made with super attention to quality. I'm still amazed Line 6 never made any sort of editing software for it, as it would be nice to be able to back it up without going through a bunch of arcane MIDI stuff.

I suspect the M13 was the last thing I'll ever buy from Line 6, but you can certainly do good things with the unit.

[Kinx]

I use M13 a lot, I especially like the before/after FX looper feature - since I use looping a lot in live situations with my band (sometimes just to create drone within a song, but mostly because I don't like to talk to audience between songs), this is very handy for me as I can assign various effects to the playing loop.

I also noticed that some effects are much lower quality compared to other Line6 standalone counterparts, tape echo or barrel flange being the example.

I also had some switching issues - I bought my unit used (it had already about 5 years worth of gigging on it already, but everything was working ok) and after about year and half (about 70 shows and some rehearsals) some switches became unreliable - this affected mainly switches assigned to looping controls, which left me quite frustrated during gigs. I have already had all switches replaced, that cost me about 80 euro.

What really bugs me is that sometimes after I turn the M13 on, some effect presetss banks are reset to some random settings - IE distortion in place of delay, different effect model, lowered feedback settings etc. I taught myself to quickly check all the settings I use on the soundcheck because of this. I suspect the bank select dial to be cause of this, but it is quite hard to debug, since it happens very randomly.

I would definitely love to have some kind of replacement that would be more reliable, but I can't find anything with such broad effect options (I use filter section and other weird sounds a lot), integrated looper and general ease of use.

[Embenny]

I have to say that I'd be all over one of these if they did a revamp with the build quality and newer effects algorithms of the Helix. I'm wary of buying a piece of digital gear that is so long in the tooth. It's almost a decade old, and digital gear has moved forward a lot in that time.

Basically, I'm hoping for a Line6 product that can compete with the Fractal FX8, with a less eye-watering price.

[InLimbo]

I've thought about this stuff before, but it's kind of hard to justify the value of the unit compared to some of the pricing....

[burpgun]

It would be nice of Fractal could find a way to make something more affordable. Not sure if you guys know the band Failure, but it seems like they’ve gone whole hog with that company’s gear and don’t even bother with amps. They’re the first time I’ve ever heard a band do it and make me say “that works.”

[Kinx]

I love Failure, one of their reunion gigs prompted me to search for B&B Jazzmaster (and now I own one )

I took a deeper look into list of FX8 features and it looks pretty impressive, but I simply can't justify the price to myself, at least for now...unless it would replace all the effects I'm using, including 4 fuzz boxes.

[Embenny]

It would be nice of Fractal could find a way to make something more affordable. Not sure if you guys know the band Failure, but it seems like they’ve gone whole hog with that company’s gear and don’t even bother with amps. They’re the first time I’ve ever heard a band do it and make me say “that works.”

While I understand your point, there are a lot more live acts relying on Kemper and AxeFX than many people realize. I wish I could remember who it was, but I read an interview a year or two ago of a superstar metal act that was using exclusively Kemper signal through the FOH and onstage, but had their fullstacks on stage and turned on for the looks. Nobody in the audience would realize that the guitar signals were going to Kempers offstage.

Spoke with a touring country guitarist as well last year, wish I could remember the singer he was supporting (they were decently big), but I just don't know anyone in that world so the name didn't stick, but both he and the other guitarist in the band were purely Kemper-based. Killer player. Anyway, my point is that touring musicians of very diverse styles are relying on these tools more than most people realize already. Consistent sound every time, no variable of how the cab is mic'd, no bleed from other instruments onstage.

I love Failure, one of their reunion gigs prompted me to search for B&B Jazzmaster (and now I own one )

I took a deeper look into list of FX8 features and it looks pretty impressive, but I simply can't justify the price to myself, at least for now...unless it would replace all the effects I'm using, including 4 fuzz boxes.

I can't justify the price, myself, even as the only component of a pedalboard. But damn, the effects in that thing are pristine, even the drives. They do have 5 fuzzes in there (fuzz face, tone bender, big muff pi, maestro fuzz-tone, and an original model), but the one thing it can't emulate is having a fuzz without a buffer in front of it (because there IS a buffer in front of it, as a digital device), so if you have your fuzzes first in your chain with no buffer in front of them, it won't behave in that specific way that fuzzes interact with a volume knob without a buffer.

I don't use a ton of effects, so I've been quite satisfied with the Kemper, but if I needed a million delays/verbs/drives/modulation fx with pre-amp/in-the-loop routing, I would definitely be into the FX8.

[burpgun]

I'm sure you are right that usage of totally digital solutions happens more than people recognize. I think Muse may do it as well, as I recall an SNL episode where they up on stage and I don't recall any amps.

Living in NYC I have no choice but to use amp sims when recording. I love my Deluxe Reverb but there's simply no way I can use it without sparking open warfare with the neighbors. That's very much opened me to the attractiveness of having that sort of tech live. I play a Bass VI a lot and the ideal setting for me is the Deluxe Reverb and a bass amp going at the same time. It would be wonderful to have a full spectrum PA cab fed by digital approximation of that amp set up. The setup would be so simple.

Still, I went to see Sleep over the summer. I've never seen so many amps on stage. Mountains of amps. I think Pike had like three or full full stacks worth of stuff. Not sure the venue PA carried much more than voice and drums.

[Kinx]

Many professionals I know turn to Kemper - since it is widely viewed as the first guitar amp simulation device that actually works ( as opposed to pods and elevens of the past) and is more user friendly to use than axe fx - that may be subjective, but many people I know chose kemper not only for it's audio qualities, but also for ease of use.

Since my band is playing mostly small venues, I don't have justification for using any DI style gadget for guitar - PA is used mostly for vocals and kick drum in our case and I would have to lug some kind of active PA monitor with me anyway (we don't use in ears), so there is barely any benefit in it for me (my tone is pretty consistent anyway). If I would tour a lot around mid to large venues, I would definitely consider it an option.

For home recording, I personally stick with output of my amp's preamp (I usually take it from slave out directly into soundcard) + VST Convolution cab simulation - that solution is totally silent (master can stay on 0) and it allows me to change cab models during mix

[Embenny]

I'm sure you are right that usage of totally digital solutions happens more than people recognize. I think Muse may do it as well, as I recall an SNL episode where they up on stage and I don't recall any amps.

Living in NYC I have no choice but to use amp sims when recording. I love my Deluxe Reverb but there's simply no way I can use it without sparking open warfare with the neighbors. That's very much opened me to the attractiveness of having that sort of tech live. I play a Bass VI a lot and the ideal setting for me is the Deluxe Reverb and a bass amp going at the same time. It would be wonderful to have a full spectrum PA cab fed by digital approximation of that amp set up. The setup would be so simple.

Still, I went to see Sleep over the summer. I've never seen so many amps on stage. Mountains of amps. I think Pike had like three or full full stacks worth of stuff. Not sure the venue PA carried much more than voice and drums.

You're actually describing my setup with my new band. Bass VI-->Kemper running parallel signal paths (DI bass with compression and EQ blended with a Super Reverb for the guitar tone component, though sometimes I substitute an SVT for the SR when the song calls for that kind of tone). Run it through a Bose L-1 Model II, which is a compact tower PA with a big subwoofer.

Jealous that you just got to see Sleep. Yeah, those mountains of Green/Matamp stacks are something to behold. I totally get it. If I was as big as them and had a roadie to haul hundreds of pounds of gear for me, I'd be tempted. Sadly, I need something I can fit in my trunk myself

Many professionals I know turn to Kemper - since it is widely viewed as the first guitar amp simulation device that actually works ( as opposed to pods and elevens of the past) and is more user friendly to use than axe fx - that may be subjective, but many people I know chose kemper not only for it's audio qualities, but also for ease of use.

Since my band is playing mostly small venues, I don't have justification for using any DI style gadget for guitar - PA is used mostly for vocals and kick drum in our case and I would have to lug some kind of active PA monitor with me anyway (we don't use in ears), so there is barely any benefit in it for me (my tone is pretty consistent anyway). If I would tour a lot around mid to large venues, I would definitely consider it an option.

For home recording, I personally stick with output of my amp's preamp (I usually take it from slave out directly into soundcard) + VST Convolution cab simulation - that solution is totally silent (master can stay on 0) and it allows me to change cab models during mix

I totally get it. It's not always the most logical solution. I do agree that it's WAY simpler to use a Kemper than an AxeFX. You gotta do a lot of deep menu editing on the Axe. The Kemper does have fairly advanced options if and when you choose to use them, but you can also use it as simply as "download 300 profiles, scroll through them, delete the ones you don't like and save the ones that sound good without fussing with controls" if that's your inclination.

[sessylU]

I think I remember reading or hearing that Weezer and maybe Mastodon (or Meshuggah??) used digital amp sims rather than the "real" thing.

[burpgun]

Looked up the Kemper gear. Looks cool, but still pricey compared to the type of amps in my reach. Still, if you are going for boutique or true vintage amps, it may get competitive there. Anyone with thoughts on the Line 6 Helix stuff? I've faded most of their non-M13 stuff out of my life, but this is there shot at the Fractal and Kemper gangs, right?

[Embenny]

Looked up the Kemper gear. Looks cool, but still pricey compared to the type of amps in my reach. Still, if you are going for boutique or true vintage amps, it may get competitive there. Anyone with thoughts on the Line 6 Helix stuff? I've faded most of their non-M13 stuff out of my life, but this is there shot at the Fractal and Kemper gangs, right?

For sure, the Kemper's price range puts it in a niche at the moment. Not cheap enough to be practical for many situations.

Lots of Helix fans around. It's their attempt at the Fractal market. The Kemper is really in a different category since it doesn't have any inherent models. It's more a conduit through which to capture snapshots of real amps and recreate them. The Helix, like Fractal's stuff, has models built from the ground up. If you take a Plexi, the bass knob is supposed to interact the way a Plexi's bass knob does with the rest of the circuit. That's not the Kemper's MO.

My personal opinion is that the Helix got absolutely demolished when Fractal released the AX8, which is now at a cheaper price point than the Helix. The modeling in the Fractal is just of a higher quality/resolution/dynamic responsiveness IMO. It makes a few compromises to get there compared to its full-on rackmount sibling (e.g. It can generate an amp tone run through different cab IRs for L and R outputs, but it can't run a Fender Twin on the L and a Mark V on the right like the AxeFX II or Helix can).

Those compromises don't bother me, since I'd take one perfect tone over two simultaneous imperfect ones. That's actually exactly why I ended up with a Kemper, which is much more limited in Fx and routing capabilities than either the Fractal or Helix units, but just captures the touch and response of my tube amps in a way nothing has before.

In a mix, you'd be a fool to think you could identify which unit you were using (much more variation within each unit than between them), so I went with the one where I felt the greatest physical connection between my guitar and the amp. The most authentic reactions to changes in touch, volume knob, etc. That was the Kemper, for me. But this latest generation of digital devices is a new breed. I've been dabbling in modeling for 15+ years, and this was the first time I actually started selling off tube amps because I wasn't using them anymore. And I say that as a vinyl-listening tube amp snob of yesteryear (still a vinyl snob but I've learned enough from this experience to never write off digital...someone will someday figure out how to copy the sound of ortofon cartridges and McIntosh amps, someday).