Which Amp Should I Upgrade First? (Tone Tubby)

[Danley]

Looking at the Ceramic Humboldts (8” 4 ohm and 10” 16 ohm) for bigger bass on either amp, with earlier breakup (don’t need efficiency- they’re practice amps as I use them.)

Which amp ‘needs’ the upgrade more, respective to the current speaker? ‘78 Silverface Champ with existing Jensen 4 ohm 8” C8R ? Or Vox AC4C1 with stock Celestion VX10 10” 16 ohm speaker?

[somanytoys]

I can't really speak to the Champ, someone else will need to answer just how much of an improvement that will make.

But for the Vox, I can tell you that it will make a big improvement. The VX10 isn't that horrible, but it's kind of 2 dimensional. Also - you can use an 8 ohm speaker instead, but from what I've read you may go through tubes faster because it works at a little bit higher level.

I have 2 AC4TV 10" combos, one with a Greenback and one with a 50th Anniversary Vintage 30, and bought an AC4C1 TV with the stock VX10. I swapped the VX10 with the Vintage 30 and it responds much better now, especially since the C1 has separate volume and gain switches, where the regular TVs do not (volume only). (edit - and separate bass & treble knobs, instead of just a "tone" knob to roll off highs)

I played the TV that I put the VX10 in, and it sounds good, but I think doing a comparison between it and just the one with the Greenback would be easy enough to tell a pretty big difference. I'm sure the difference is even bigger with the C1.

I should try that & see how much difference there is, kind of surprised I haven't already.

Anyway, I can say that I think it will make a big difference with the Vox. Hopefully someone else can give you their experience with the Champ.

(double edit: then you can consider swapping tubes, if you haven't already. My faves are Tung Sol)

[Danley]

Thanks - sure have swapped tubes on the Vox RFT 12AX7s and a GT power tube. Much lower volume breakup and more bass. The Champ has the stock 70s tubes; tried RFTs as well but didn’t make a large difference.

[somanytoys]

Good deal, I've found that it makes a difference in these. The stock Chinas are really loud and break up fast, JJs were the next loudest and distorted ones, I found. If you've already found more bass from it with the tube swap, it would seem that the speaker swap should really knock you out.

Something else to consider - I stuck a Groove Tubes 12AT7 in V1 of the C1, instead of an AX, and got even lower volume breakup. I still have a Tung Sol AX in V2, I'm just sending in a slightly cleaner signal into V2 using the AT than with an AX. You may or may not like it, but it worked well for me, especially for using pedals.

Yeah, I don't know much at all about Champs, and how well they polish up with new parts. Hopefully someone can answer that for you, but my money would be on the thought that the biggest improvement will be on the Vox - especially since you've already gotten some good mileage out of the tube upgrade.

[Danley]

Good thoughts on 12AT7s - With the stock tubes I found the tone controls were only really useable to me set with the treble wound all the way down and bass maxed out; the RFTs definitely fixed the balance and bought me room to actually adjust the controls, so now I just want a bit more meat/less boxiness on the bass side.

If anything I'd want to add some highs on the Champ - but again the focus is on thicker bass for me, and hopeful to lose some headroom as well.

[Larsongs]

Nothing against guys who got them but I couldn't see getting the AC4's. For not much more I got an AC10 which comes stock with the same VX10 Spkr. Which IMO is an extremely harsh Sounding Speaker.. I bought it intending to upgrade the Speaker to the Special Design Weber that sounds similar to an Alnico Blue... I also upgraded the Tubes to Tung Sol's & JJ's.. I prefer the Tung Sol's. It's a sweet little Amp.

It is perfect size, weight & is about the same Watts as a Princeton Reverb. It's great at bedroom levels. But it's also great in the Studio, Rehearsals & Gigs..

I've been using it more than my AC15 with Blue & all my Fender Amps...

If I were you I'd at least consider it...

[Danley]

Nothing against guys who got them but I couldn't see getting the AC4's.

The AC10 was (IIRC) not in production yet when I bought the AC4 - think I kicked myself when it was released. That said, I still don't want a huge amt. of power given I want earlier break-up. People actually seem to like the C8R for some applications - may lean toward upgrading the Vox given that.

[somanytoys]

The AC4TVs are what I got my feet wet with for Vox, first the 10" combos and then the 12" mini stacks. They're good for what they are, I'm keeping one combo and at least one mini stack, for practice and for playing out at small gigs.

I later bought the AC4C1 TV BC because it was an upgrade from the regular TV (and very pretty), and it's a much better version of the 10" combo, and I also just bought it's big brother, the AC15C1 TV BC. Those aren't going clubbing, which is why I'm keeping the others. The 10" combos actually offer a very complementary sound to the larger amps or larger 12" speakers, I use separate chains and I have a bit harsher one go to the combo and a bigger sound go to the amp with the 12" speaker or a larger amp (set low).

I already have two 30 watt Frenzels that each have both a Deluxe and a Plexi preamp, and I have a Laney VC30 (Laney's version of the AC30), so I'm pretty well set on the higher wattage end, when I need those. I specifically got the lower wattage Voxes for playing at lower volumes, and I find that they excel at that. The C1 is a better amp, especially with the upgrades, but the regular TVs can be some really good sounding little 4 watt amps.

[Larsongs]

Nothing against guys who got them but I couldn't see getting the AC4's.

The AC10 was (IIRC) not in production yet when I bought the AC4 - think I kicked myself when it was released. That said, I still don't want a huge amt. of power given I want earlier break-up. People actually seem to like the C8R for some applications - may lean toward upgrading the Vox given that.

Because the AC10 has separate Volume & Gain Controls you can dial in Breakup at any Volume.. That was a major selling point for me...

[Danley]

Nothing against guys who got them but I couldn't see getting the AC4's.

The AC10 was (IIRC) not in production yet when I bought the AC4 - think I kicked myself when it was released. That said, I still don't want a huge amt. of power given I want earlier break-up. People actually seem to like the C8R for some applications - may lean toward upgrading the Vox given that.

Because the AC10 has separate Volume & Gain Controls you can dial in Breakup at any Volume.. That was a major selling point for me...

So does the AC4 :

[somanytoys]

That looks just like mine. Is that the BC? It looks like it, that bluebwith the gold piping.

Yeah, you need to dose that thing out.

I love mine, thinking about buying an alnico for it.

[Danley]

That looks just like mine. Is that the BC? It looks like it, that bluebwith the gold piping.

Yeah, you need to dose that thing out.

I love mine, thinking about buying an alnico for it.

Not my amp above, but mine is the blue Went with the Humboldt for the Vox, will report back.

[somanytoys]

Looked at mine, different design. Same concept.

Looks really nice - of course it does, if I thought it was like mine.

Anyway, that can benefit highly from upgrades .

[Larsongs]

The AC10 was (IIRC) not in production yet when I bought the AC4 - think I kicked myself when it was released. That said, I still don't want a huge amt. of power given I want earlier break-up. People actually seem to like the C8R for some applications - may lean toward upgrading the Vox given that.

Because the AC10 has separate Volume & Gain Controls you can dial in Breakup at any Volume.. That was a major selling point for me...

So does the AC4 :

Nothing against those Amps. But, for me, the other selling Points of the AC10 in addition to the separate Volume & Gain are the Reverb & that it has about the same Watts as my PRRI.. And, that it's not just a Bedroom Amp... A lot of Amp considering it's less than half the price of a PRRI...

I like my PRRI, DRRI & Vox AC15 too.. They're great. But, for me & all the different kinds of playing I do, the Vox AC10 checks the most Boxes...... Including I can use it for Gigs & it's easy to travel with...

[Danley]

Humboldt is installed.

The Good: It’s definitely less efficient/sensitive/loud than the stock speaker, for any volume setting, pre break-in anyway - which was my primary goal. So amp break-up is achievable at less obscene volumes (for an apartment amp.) And when it is clean, it sounds better too - rids the amp of some of the cocked-wah tones and firms up some sponginess/bounciness.

The Meh: EQ doesn’t seem to have sacrificed the bass as much, but there’s definitely more available treble; enough the full sweep of the tone control is not really useable any more (and that was the situation of the amp with the stock speaker before I swapped to the RFT 12AX7s.) Oh well, keeping the treble five and under it sounds fine and the bass still has a decent thump even if it didn’t grow; set/forget. Again may be related to needing to break the thing in, we’ll see in a few months - another caveat speaking of break-in, I need to take it somewhere I can crank it still; though this amp won’t probably spend a lot of Its life doing that.