Princeton Reverb quandary

[Stosh221]

Devoted site reader, infrequent poster here. Hoping some kind members can fill me in on a question I have concerning Fender Princeton Reverb amps.

A lot of forum members have extolled the PR as a top-notch small amp. I've been looking to replace a spine-poppingly heavy red knob Super-60, which I sold on Reverb a while back. I'd like a smaller, lighter, less overpowered amplifier, and the PR (reissue) seemed like the way to go.

Because my local music store doesn't often stock PRs, I ordered one from Sweetwater. I got the version they sell with a 12" Eminence Cannabis Rex. I wasn't specifically drawn to the Cannabis Rex, but I figured the 12" speaker might give me a bit more low end heft and perceived volume. I was pretty shocked at how bad the amp sounded. All honking midrange, and none of the scooped, sparkly deliciousness one associates with Fenders. For those old enough to get the reference, it reminded me of something squawking gratingly out of an old-style Wester Electric landline phone. (Okay, I'm being a little hyperbolic, but man it sounded awful.) No tweaking of the treble or bass controls could get it sounding right. So I returned it.

About a week ago my local shop got in a special edition PR reissue with a 12" Celestion Blue. It sounded much more in line with what I'd expected to hear coming out of a Fender. A pretty sweet sounding amplifier.

Knowing me, I'm going to have to hem and haw about it for a while, and in all likelihood by the time I work up a head of steam to make a purchase, the one I listened to this week will be long gone. Don't want to order one and wind up back where I started—with some midrange-y thing that sounds like it's hooked up to a victrola horn.

Was what I was hearing in that first amp down to the Cannabis Rex? You say po-taugt-o, I say po-tate-o, but man that thing sounded nasty to my ears. Wondering if anyone has run into anything like this with PR amplifiers and/or C-Rex speakers?

[wproffitt]

There are definitely some cannabis rex/PR users here. I’m sure they’ll arrive soon with some wisdom on this. I know that speaker choice can change the voIce of an amp quite a bit, it is there a chance that you just got a dud? I have a tough time imagining that the c red would completetly alternthr the scooper character of the PR sound. If it is a dud, could you return it?

[Despot]

Speakers and tubes. Those are usually my variables in how an amp sounds, or why an amp that should sound great (and which is functioning correctly and not damaged in some way) sounds poor.

I have a silverface Princeton non-reverb - it came with a huge EV speaker fitted - it was a loud/clean speaker that was being used to try to get a cleaner sound from the Princeton (I suspect the amp was being used for an instrument other than guitar). It sounded great with the EV (better than it should have) ... but it was too clean/efficient for the Princeton.

I replaced it with a Weber speaker and instantly noticed that the sound was closer to what I would have expected - and it still sounded great. A classic Fender sound - that one you'd recognise from so many recordings over the years.

The tubes were the other variable in this equation - but the tubes were a mix of old and NOS valves - a mix of Amperex, RCA and Philips tubes. Same with my silverface Princeton Reverb (with the original speaker).

So unless the amp is malfunctioning (and that's the issue with the sound) then you could check out speaker and tubes.

However, as it's new wouldn't it be easier to return it and then pick up the one in the local store (which you know sounds great)? This is one of the reasons why I hate buying online from strangers ... you never know exactly what it is you're going to get.

[Arthon]

You cannot achieve the real Princeton Reverb sound with a 12" speaker; but it will be louder and the bass will be less flubby at high volume. The 10" speakers are more "touch-sensitive" then 12" speakers.

[Stosh221]

However, as it's new wouldn't it be easier to return it and then pick up the one in the local store (which you know sounds great)? This is one of the reasons why I hate buying online from strangers ... you never know exactly what it is you're going to get.

Yep, Sweetwater was great and took the amp back with zero questions asked. I didn't request it, but they even waived the return shipping.

I've played a lot of tube amps over the years (primarily Fenders), with a variety of speakers—Jenson, JBL, EV. I just didn't realize a speaker could alter the sound so radically (assuming that's the explanation in this case).

I guess another way I could have phrased my question would be, is anyone else using an amp with a Cannabis Rex, and does s/he find it to be incredibly mid-forward?

[Stosh221]

You cannot achieve the real Princeton Reverb sound with a 12" speaker; but it will be louder and the bass will be less flubby at high volume. The 10" speakers are more "touch-sensitive" then 12" speakers.

Yes, I've been wondering about the 10" vs 12" business. For whatever reason PRs are difficult to find in my area, so I almost never come across one with a 10" speaker.

I'm probably sounding like an obsessive tone zealot, but really I just want a decent ballpark Fender sound in a small package. Maybe I should seek out the standard PR model and give that a listen.

[Arthon]

You cannot achieve the real Princeton Reverb sound with a 12" speaker; but it will be louder and the bass will be less flubby at high volume. The 10" speakers are more "touch-sensitive" then 12" speakers.

Yes, I've been wondering about the 10" vs 12" business. For whatever reason PRs are difficult to find in my area, so I almost never come across one with a 10" speaker.

I'm probably sounding like an obsessive tone zealot, but really I just want a decent ballpark Fender sound in a small package. Maybe I should seek out the standard PR model and give that a listen.

The standard jensen speaker in the standard PRRI is really low output. It sound great at home, but doesnt sound good when cranked. Webers, WGS, some Eminence, some Celestion and even the better 10" Jensen speaker are a huge improvement.

[shoule79]

If you can, wait for a used silver face from the 70’s to pop up. Even one with push-pull volume (they may even be less than a new reissue).

I’ve had mine for a couple years now, and it’s tough to go back to the PRRI’s when I demo something in store after having the real deal at home. I almost passed on an Epiphone Riviera recently after It sounded like absolute garbage through a PRRI in the shop, only to get it home and have it sound amazing through my mostly stock SFPR (only mod being an Eminence 10” speaker from the 80’s instead of the original).

[salty]

I am a big fan of the Cannabis Rex speaker and have a Princeton Reverb I built with one in it. Just a s a heads up, that speaker take s a lot of playing to really break in and sound as good as it can. The hemp cone does make it take a while to break in, but it does sound super good once it does. But, there are lots of times I do miss having a 10 in the amp instead of a 12, the reissue I had before building mine sounded amazing once that 10 broke in.

[beauzooka]

I have a Cannabis Rex, but not in my Princeton. It's a great sounding speaker for me with a balanced, American kind of voicing. A Celestion Blue should be a more mid forward and have less bottom end than the CR.
I'd guess that something was wrong with that amp. Electronics, tubes, or just voiced weird.

[Stosh221]

But, there are lots of times I do miss having a 10 in the amp instead of a 12, the reissue I had before building mine sounded amazing once that 10 broke in.

Helps to hear that perspective from someone who has had a lot of experience with a 10" and a 12" in their PR. I'm really leaning towards the traditional 10" at this point. In the context of working with a bass player I always wind up rolling off a lot of low end anyway—so that together we're not creating a lot of rumbly mush. Don't know why I was hung up on the 12" in the first place. I guess it's because that's what I've had in every other amplifier I've ever used.

[jdr1014]

If you can, wait for a used silver face from the 70’s to pop up. Even one with push-pull volume (they may even be less than a new reissue).

I’ve had mine for a couple years now, and it’s tough to go back to the PRRI’s when I demo something in store after having the real deal at home. I almost passed on an Epiphone Riviera recently after It sounded like absolute garbage through a PRRI in the shop, only to get it home and have it sound amazing through my mostly stock SFPR (only mod being an Eminence 10” speaker from the 80’s instead of the original).

Well.............I have several wonderful SF and BF Fenders. I also have had a DRRI to compare with my mint SFDR.........and have a PRRI too. While I am very fond of the "real" vintage amps, I ended up buying the 65PRRI to scratch my PR "itch" and have been extremely pleased with it. It received a full compliment of my favorite NOS tubes and has been properly biased. Fender RI amps are notorious for being biased very cold to preserve their current production tubes, resulting in a much more sterile tone. Still has the stock Jensen reissue speaker but it is well broken in now. It is a "reissue" but it is an excellent sounding PR. Same experience with the DRRI I had (since given to my grandson) with the same type of setup. I had a TRRI awhile back that sounded darn good too once it was dialed in the same way. The point is that Fender Reissue amps are fine amps and the primary reasons they don't sound as good as some originals is because of cold bias and stiff new speakers. Better tubes do help too.

While any poorly set up amp can sound like "garbage", to imply that it will because it is a "Reissue" and that any vintage one will sound much better is inaccurate. Again, I love my vintage amps but have also had a few "duds" in the past. A vintage amp will almost always need to be checked and serviced to sound best and survive. A new Reissue will need to have bias checked to sound optimal. A well broken in speaker will always sound better and more responsive than a stiff brand new one - regardless of what amp is driving it.

I would certainly buy a SFPR in good shape if I could find one reasonably priced and would plan on having it serviced. Problem is that prices for good SF Princeton Reverbs and DR's have become very high, and prices for BF originals are considerably higher still. In my area, It's been a long time since I have seen a SFPR in halfway decent unmolested condition at anywhere near the price of a new RI. One does not need to pay the usual "street price" for new gear. MF frequently has 15% off MAP deals and I can always find a local shop that will match. Lightly used Reissues can often be found in the $600 range.

My advice to the OP is to stick with a 10 inch speaker unless you need max volume, and use a speaker style similar to the original ceramic Jensens. A Reissue is a fine choice, but make sure bias is set correctly. Beyond that, give the stock speaker plenty of time to break in before thinking about swapping it - makes a difference! Good tubes help any amp - I like NOS. but not absolutely necessary. I prefer the 65PRRI/Jensen model to the 68Custom RI/Celestion for classic PR tone and feel. Good luck with your PR quest !!

[shoule79]

If you can, wait for a used silver face from the 70’s to pop up. Even one with push-pull volume (they may even be less than a new reissue).

I’ve had mine for a couple years now, and it’s tough to go back to the PRRI’s when I demo something in store after having the real deal at home. I almost passed on an Epiphone Riviera recently after It sounded like absolute garbage through a PRRI in the shop, only to get it home and have it sound amazing through my mostly stock SFPR (only mod being an Eminence 10” speaker from the 80’s instead of the original).

Well.............I have several wonderful SF and BF Fenders. I also have had a DRRI to compare with my mint SFDR.........and have a PRRI too. While I am very fond of the "real" vintage amps, I ended up buying the 65PRRI to scratch my PR "itch" and have been extremely pleased with it. It received a full compliment of my favorite NOS tubes and has been properly biased. Fender RI amps are notorious for being biased very cold to preserve their current production tubes, resulting in a much more sterile tone. Still has the stock Jensen reissue speaker but it is well broken in now. It is a "reissue" but it is an excellent sounding PR. Same experience with the DRRI I had (since given to my grandson) with the same type of setup. I had a TRRI awhile back that sounded darn good too once it was dialed in the same way. The point is that Fender Reissue amps are fine amps and the primary reasons they don't sound as good as some originals is because of cold bias and stiff new speakers. Better tubes do help too.

While any poorly set up amp can sound like "garbage", to imply that it will because it is a "Reissue" and that any vintage one will sound much better is inaccurate. Again, I love my vintage amps but have also had a few "duds" in the past. A vintage amp will almost always need to be checked and serviced to sound best and survive. A new Reissue will need to have bias checked to sound optimal. A well broken in speaker will always sound better and more responsive than a stiff brand new one - regardless of what amp is driving it.

I would certainly buy a SFPR in good shape if I could find one reasonably priced and would plan on having it serviced. Problem is that prices for good SF Princeton Reverbs and DR's have become very high, and prices for BF originals are considerably higher still. In my area, It's been a long time since I have seen a SFPR in halfway decent unmolested condition at anywhere near the price of a new RI. One does not need to pay the usual "street price" for new gear. MF frequently has 15% off MAP deals and I can always find a local shop that will match. Lightly used Reissues can often be found in the $600 range.

My advice to the OP is to stick with a 10 inch speaker unless you need max volume, and use a speaker style similar to the original ceramic Jensens. A Reissue is a fine choice, but make sure bias is set correctly. Beyond that, give the stock speaker plenty of time to break in before thinking about swapping it - makes a difference! Good tubes help any amp - I like NOS. but not absolutely necessary. I prefer the 65PRRI/Jensen model to the 68Custom RI/Celestion for classic PR tone and feel. Good luck with your PR quest !!

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I’ve had vintage duds myself. PRRI’s and the custom 68’s used to be my mainstay when demoing new guitars in shops, but lately they have been leaving me flat compared to my original. Maybe I’ve become accustomed to my keeper of a PR, maybe the newer ones are different than they were a few years ago?

My view is this, a brand new PRRI is a bit more than $1500 new in Canada, plus 13% tax. Factor a trip to the shop to get it biased and upgrade the tubes, you are Around $1900. And, if the speaker doesn’t sound the way you like when you break it in, you have another expense.

Compare that to a later 70’s PR. Around here they sell for around $1500 in a decent condition. With that you get an amp that is more serviceable and generally already is what it is going to be (broken in speakers, decent tubes). You may have to budget in a few hundred for a trip to a tech, but it’s still a better deal than getting a new one up to spec.

However, if I was comparing an original PR to a used PRRI, most of my positives above go out the window because they likely already have broken in speakers and may have better tubes. For the most part it already is what it’s going to be. You may get what you want for a better price if that is the case. The only caveat remaining is serviceability long term.

If it were me I would, and did wait for the right original to come along. If I’d found a good deal on a used PRRI I’d have likely went with that and been just as happy.

Just my $0.02.

[jdr1014]

Wow - PRRI is $1500 + in Canada??!! I wouldn't be inclined to pay that either! OP is in NY and one can get a brand new one with a 5 year warranty shipped to his door for about $850. Add $50 to $75 for bias check....or better yet, buy a bias probe and learn to do it. What I have been seeing around here is about $1200+ for decent SFPRs and upwards of $2000 for BFPRs. (Not that many, either, unfortunately.) Those prices are about what Ebay shows too. Add $200 or so for service, etc.

As with any purchase, do the research and spend wisely. Good PR's of any flavor in good operating condition are wonderful amps.

[shoule79]

Correction, they are $1350 new. Just checked the L&m site. The $1500 one at the local store must have been a special edition.

$850, even in US funds is a much better price. Here the new price is still pretty much at parity or maybe a bit more than a later 70’s model.