Vintage Princeton Reverb & Deluxe Reverb prices

[Larsongs]

I'm interested in both Amps. I'd prefer pre CBS Blackface but not necessarily opposed to early Silverface versions. I'd like mint or near mint without major Mods. I do want Reverb & Tremelo.

Which ones are exceptionally good & good values. Price estimates for both Amps is appreciated in advance.

Thanks

L

[muchxs]

The Princeton Reverb market is superheated right now. With "Grab All You Can Get" pricing featured on most black panel amps you'll be lucky to get one without sacrificing an arm and a leg.

Good luck playing one handed while hopping on one foot.

Be aware that "Pre CBS" only applies to a few very early Princeton Reverbs. Leo sold the company a few weeks into January '65. He stayed on as a consultant until 1970.

There is very little difference between 1965 models and Princeton Reverbs from most of 1970. If you can get over the silver faceplate and the plastic insulation on the wire they're practically the same amp.

[j mascis]

I can't speak to the DR, but having owned both the Brownface Princetons are a better deal, imo. They sound better and are more responsive amps than the blacks. They're a little cheaper, too. You can find them for like $1200. The blackfaces tend to go for more. If you need the reverb you're stuck with a Black, but the tremolo on the Brown is iconic and makes up for the lack of verb.

I'm not sure it's a good time to buy, though. There's two massive bubbles in housing and stocks that have people feeling good. Then the baby boomers are dying off and will have to sell all these amps. So, I see prices coming down over the next few years, personally, unless you have a collector piece.

[Larsongs]

Thanks for the feedback. I have reissues of both 65 DRRI & Princeton Reverb Amps. Both are good.

But every time I got to Jam Sessions at one of my friends & play his Vintage Fender Guitars & Amps they sound amazing. He has about 30 Guitars from early 50's Esquire on up. As well as all the iconic Amps. Some duplicates. All are mint condition originals or reconditioned to mint.

He never wants to sell any of his Gear though. I've already inquired as to my interest.

I will probably keep my RI's for Gigging but would like Vintage Amps for my Studio. A Blackface Princeton Reverb would be my first choice then add a Deluxe Reverb. I'm not opposed to Silverface.

I'm not real familiar with Brownface Series? What's different about them?

Also, are Deluxe Reverbs more plentiful than Princeton Reverbs?

Thanks

[marqueemoon]

Yeah. The market is out of control on these.

Alessandro does PTP rebuilds. Not sure if you would be able to start with a donor reissue amp with issues, but as I remember you can get into one of these for about half of what a vintage Blackface Deluxe will run you these days, and you can always chain smoke around it and kick it down some stairs if you want to relic it.

http://alessandro-products.com/vintage-continuation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[elektrovac]

If you need the reverb you're stuck with a Black, but the tremolo on the Brown is iconic and makes up for the lack of verb.

The tremolos are identical in the brown (6G2) and blackface Princetons and Princeton Reverbs (and silverface versions). All are the 'bias vary' type. The brown Princeton (and Deluxe) does not have the unique and complex 'harmonic tremolo' of the larger brownface amps.

Then again, the 'bias vary' tremolo of the small amps are different from the optical tremolo of the larger blackface and silverface amps.

[Despot]

I'd look for silver face.

I've both a SF Princeton Reverb, as well as a SF Princeton non-reverb. Both are really great amps ... the reissues are in the ballpark, but there is definately a difference when I listen to the PR and compare it to a BF PR reissue. A lot of that has to do with the speaker I'm sure - the PR has it's original Oxford.

If I recall correctly neither amp cost me more than 1200 euro. And that's cheaper than the street price of a BF PR reissue by the way (1250 euro iirc). At that price you're getting a vintage amp, in both cases they came with original valves working fine (another plus - as NOS valves can be pricey, and in some cases difficult to get the quality you'd have gotten fitted as factory standard when the amp was new).

Blackface ... especially good to mint condition blackface ... will cost. The prices are inflated right now. Brownface, as others have mentioned, are reasonable. They're rare in Ireland or 220v though ... so I've little experience with them.

So ... if you're after the BF sound on a budget, the early-mid '70s SF amps are the way to go. I like my '71 Princeton Reverb so much that I've pretty much played nothing else since I got it (and fixed a few bugs it had) before Christmas.

[muchxs]

...every time I got to Jam Sessions at one of my friends & play his Vintage Fender Guitars & Amps they sound amazing. He has about 30 Guitars from early 50's Esquire on up. As well as all the iconic Amps. Some duplicates. All are mint condition originals or reconditioned to mint.

You need to get one from your buddy.

He never wants to sell any of his Gear though. I've already inquired as to my interest.

Aw, shucks. Ain't that always the way?

Way I figure it friends share their toys.

I'm not real familiar with Brownface Series? What's different about them?

Also, are Deluxe Reverbs more plentiful than Princeton Reverbs?

The brown Princetons have a single simplified tone control and more gain. Brownies don't have reverb. The trem circuit is about the same.

Deluxe Reverbs seem to be a little more common and a little less expensive. They're the smallest example of Fender's iconic AB763 circuit. The Twin Reverb is the largest AB763 based amp.

The Princeton Reverb circuit is its own thing. Parts of its circuit can be traced to 1950s Deluxe, Harvard and Vibrolux amps.

Yeah. The market is out of control on these.

Alessandro does PTP rebuilds. Not sure if you would be able to start with a donor reissue amp with issues, but as I remember you can get into one of these for about half of what a vintage Blackface Deluxe will run you these days, and you can always chain smoke around it and kick it down some stairs if you want to relic it.

"Street" prices are about the same for used PRRI and DRRI amps at around $700 each, maybe fifty bucks more for a used DRRI. Oddly there doesn't seem to be any difference in '68 Custom and '65 "reissue" prices, aftermarket.

Alessandro's conversions cost around $1300 for the PRRI and $1500 for the DRRI.

Vintage Tone does a few hand wired conversions each month, too.

[sookwinder]

I think it is a little disingenuous to make the blanket statement that Brown Princteons are better than BFPRs.

They are totally different beasts.
One has reverb the other doesn't
as mentioned one has the tweed style tone controls where as the oter has the BF/SF bass/treble controls
The have different trem circuits
the brown is fixed biased power valves the BFPR utilises cathode biased set up.
while both use a cathodyne Phase Inverter set up, the brown is set much hotter than the BFPR
Rectifier valve... PR DR : Mullard GZ34 Brown Princeton 5Y3GT ..... I love GZ34s

as I said apples and oranges.

You need to decided what sound, what usage you want the amp for.
If we are just comparing the brown and the BF Princetons, a very simple comparison is that the Brown is more tweed like , where as the BF is far cleaner , where the OD kicks in more smoothly and eventually leads to a creamy OD similar to the BFDR. The Brown is really a clean version of a tweed.

Now if we compare DR and PR... from a circuit topography perspective the PR is cleaner than the DR (colder set up but not in a bad way oh no certainly not) which is why a lot of player love them, you get those clean tones and then the creamy OD just roll in. Where as the DR get the OD starting about 6 (depending on amp to amp set up) . The OD in a DR is awesome but it is different sound OD than the PR OD. The cathodyne PI has its own unique sound to the OD. (the DR uses long tail pair PI set up)

then you have the speakers 12" verses 10"... me? I have both but prefer the 10"... then there is the magic of the OXFORD 10" speaker.
OXFORD couldn't make a 12" speaker to save their lives, but some how magic occurred and the 10" speaker is divine.. crisp, articulate, 3D, punchy... its all there.

Given that very little changed from a BF to a SF PR I would be looking for a SFPR with an OXFORD 10" speaker (differences from BF to 70s SF: blue moulded tone caps to brown turd looking caps ... visual description not a take down of their sound quality. esrly SF have the GZ34 rectifier like the BF, later SF have the 5U4GB bottle rectifier valve. The circuit change so little between SF and BF PR (or not at all) that I do not even have a SFPR circuit diagram... everyone just uses the BFPR circuit for the SFPR

In short the PR is a less beefed up DR. They use the same power valves and preamp valves, just one is ready to fight immediately, the other takes a while as you turn up the volume to get there, but it is oh so worth it when you do.

[muchxs]

They are totally different beasts.
One has reverb the other doesn't
as mentioned one has the tweed style tone controls where as the oter has the BF/SF bass/treble controls
The have different trem circuits
the brown is fixed biased power valves the BFPR utilises cathode biased set up.
while both use a cathodyne Phase Inverter set up, the brown is set much hotter than the BFPR
Rectifier valve... PR DR : Mullard GZ34 Brown Princeton 5Y3GT ..... I love GZ34s.

6G2 and AA964 non- reverb Princetons are mostly similar except for the tone controls. Both are fixed bias with similar "bias vary" trem.

The 125P1A PT in the brownie will easily support a GZ34 rectifier. Look at the supply voltage in the 6G2... it's listed as 315v on the schematic. That might increase approximately 10% with a GZ34. The later AA964 circuit yields 420v with a GZ34 rectifier.

Given that very little changed from a BF to a SF PR I would be looking for a SFPR with an OXFORD 10" speaker (differences from BF to 70s SF: blue moulded tone caps to brown turd looking caps ... visual description not a take down of their sound quality. esrly SF have the GZ34 rectifier like the BF, later SF have the 5U4GB bottle rectifier valve. The circuit change so little between SF and BF PR (or not at all) that I do not even have a SFPR circuit diagram... everyone just uses the BFPR circuit for the SFPR.

I've worked on so many early ('65 and '66) Princeton Reverbs that came with stock dog turds I almost assumed all of 'em were built that way. Same with Champs and Vibro Champs. Seems to me the first cost cutting from the CBS bean counters was to use the less expensive brown caps in Fender's smaller amps.

'67 and '68 PRs often have blue caps. There's usually a .022 dog turd and / or .02 ceramic chips in the signal path.

[Bert Camenbert]

Yeah. The market is out of control on these.

Alessandro does PTP rebuilds. Not sure if you would be able to start with a donor reissue amp with issues, but as I remember you can get into one of these for about half of what a vintage Blackface Deluxe will run you these days, and you can always chain smoke around it and kick it down some stairs if you want to relic it.

http://alessandro-products.com/vintage-continuation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you know how much does their PTP re-build cost?

[thedude99]

The market is indeed crazy on these right now. I've been casually looking for a while, prices seem to start around $2500USD for a blackface and go up from there (and I haven't seen many at $2500).

Silverfaces aren't far behind now until you get to the push-pull volume ones, then the price drops.

[j mascis]

That's crazy for a silverface. There are many new amps that sound better than them (very ice pick sounding with spikey highs, ime). I hate the silver faces and would choose a few dozen modern amps over them.

[thedude99]

Those vintage conversions look a bit like snake oil to me. A used amp + conversion is putting you in the 2k territory. For that price point why not just look at a boutique clone or spring a bit more for an actual vintage one? Plus it does nothing about the speaker or tubes.

I read an interesting thread a while back on TGP or the telecaster forum. Someone had blackface Deluxe Reverb and a DRRI. The put the tubes and speaker from the vintage one into the reissue and said it was virtually indistinguishable from the vintage one.

[thedude99]

Who different do the later 70's models with the push-pull volume sound if you don't engage the crappy distortion?

Those can still be had for a good price since people seem down on them. I'm curious about those.